Different Killers

[Harry D]

What does his acronym mean Trevor since you seem to know?

I would love to see one of Lynn's supporters get it, before he explains it to them, which only happens after they agree with him. Odd that?

Whitechapel Murders?

[Batman]

Hi Lynn
We all know that to be the case, but did they publicly admit that ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

What does his acronym mean Trevor since you seem to know?

I would love to see one of Lynn's supporters get it, before he explains it to them, which only happens after they agree with him. Odd that?

[Batman]

I suggest you read it again. He came to no such conclusions based on your claims.

You are not being specific.

Which parts? It was back in 1988 or so that I read it. It is out of print.

What I understood was the following.

Stride not a ripper victim.
Writing not done by ripper but a shopper in the area complaining.
Fido was checking asylum records for late 1888 start of 1889. At the same time he finds Kozminski, Swanson marginallia appears in the press.
Fido opts for Cohen.

I have asked you questions like before, but you don't answer them. Dunno why.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Batman.

"Whereas the multiple killer hypothesis proposed here is unprecedented."

Not sure about HERE, but please be aware that Scotland Yard believed in several killers involved in the WCM.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn
We all know that to be the case, but did they publicly admit that ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[lynn cates]

precedents

Hello Batman.

"Whereas the multiple killer hypothesis proposed here is unprecedented."

Not sure about HERE, but please be aware that Scotland Yard believed in several killers involved in the WCM.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

bucking the trend

Hello Chris.

"...I choose not to follow the trend that has failed to identify the killer or killers of these women..."

To quote Bela Lugosi: "For one who has not lived even a single lifetime, you're a wise man, van Helsing." (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Scott Nelson]

In 1987 Martin Fido wrote The Crimes, Detection and Death of Jack the Ripper in which Stride is dropped as a victim and the Goulston Street writing is not connected. This allowed Fido to propose Swanson's identified suspect as Kozminski and then someone like Kozminski called Cohen.

I suggest you read it again. He came to no such conclusions based on your claims.

[Batman]

history

...i choose not to follow the trend that has failed to identify the killer or killers of these women...

However the methodology behind this trend has caught hundreds if not thousands of murderers and brought them to justice for what would be considered unrelated crimes without it.

Whereas the multiple killer hypothesis proposed here is unprecedented.

[chrismasonic]

...i choose not to follow the trend that has failed to identify the killer or killers of these women...

[Batman]

I agree with signs of amputations. I referenced this quite a bit on the medical knowledge thread. Bond who had experience with the medical skill behind the torso murders likely believed no medical skill in the C5 because the amputations and decapitation was incomplete. Yet completion may not have been a goal but mutilation is.

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

The best place to start might be my two essays on Kate. One is in Rip, the other in Don Souden's fine journal.

Cheers.
LC

Thanks Lynn I'll try and find those articles. Hopefully they're still available!

[lynn cates]

essays

Hello John. Thanks.

The best place to start might be my two essays on Kate. One is in Rip, the other in Don Souden's fine journal.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

I suppose in answer to my own question I will have to be boring and conventional and say that Eddowes is, for me, the most likely. However, in light of Lynn's view that Eddowes is the least likely perhaps I should state that that is only a provisional conclusion! I would certainly be interested to hear Lynn's arguments, i.e. what, in his view, makes Eddowes such an unlikely JtR victim.

Least likely JtR victim? That's more difficult as they all have their merits and weaknesses. However, in some respects Kelly concerns me. Thus, the evidence seems to point to the fact that her killer demonstrated very little technical skill. In contrast, according to the implied opinions of Trevor's medical experts at least, Chapman and Eddowes were eviscerated by someone who may have had greater expertise than a top Harley Street physician!

Of course, that raises questions of whether the organs of Chapman and Eddowes were removed by their killer. If not, the less surgical approach to eviscerating Kelly becomes in some ways less of an issue. However, that raises another difficulty becomes the inevitable implication would be that organ removal was only a specific goal of Kelly's murderer, i.e. not of whoever killed any of the other possible JtR victims, which in itself is suggestive of either a major escalation or a different killer. It's probably worth noting, however, that Keppel argues that Eddowes murder also suggests efforts to amputate, as in Kelly's case. He is also of the opinion that efforts to mutilate were even apparent in respect Tabram, suggesting a gradual escalation throughout the alleged series.

It's all very confusing.

[John G]

Hello Batman,

Are you implying that all 11 victims that you refer to, plus the Torso Murders, could feasibly have been murdered by a single killer? What about Mary Ann Austin who, like Kelly, was murdered in Dorset Street with her killer targeting the genital area? And wasn't she discovered in the same room that Chapman had been staying in up to the time she was murdered? And, as Tom Westcott points out in his book, isn't there evidence of a serious cover-up in respect of her death? And in respect of who is least likely to be a Ripper victim, surely the Torso victims must rank higher than Austin.

[Batman]

The Whitechapel murders are a series of murders that also includes a torso murder.

Emma Elizabeth Smith, Martha Tabram, Mary Ann Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride, Catherine Eddowes, Mary Jane Kelly, Rose Mylett, Alice McKenzie, Frances Coles, and an unknown prostitute. We also have Ada Wilson being attacked before Smith.

That's 11 on the board.

If the Torso is accepted then that opens it up further because there are more body parts and torso's connected to that.

Smith, Tabram and Nichols where the first to be linked by the papers who also tried a link to the torso which the police denied. This connection was been looked into by investigators. Then Chapman happened. Tabram, Nichols and Chapman then got linked with Tabram being forgotten dropped by the press for a Nichols Chapman link.

By 1889 Tabram had been dropped, Mary Ann Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride, Catherine Eddowes and Mary Jane Kelly became the C5 as per Bond's suggestion and the murders of Rose Mylett, Alice McKenzie not connected to those murders. Same goes for 1891 with Frances Coles.

In 1987 Martin Fido wrote The Crimes, Detection and Death of Jack the Ripper in which Stride is dropped as a victim and the Goulston Street writing is not connected. This allowed Fido to propose Swanson's identified suspect as Kozminski and then someone like Kozminski called Cohen.

In 1988 the FBI wrote a profile of JtR and accepted the C5.

In 1994 Phillip Sugden wrote The Complete History of Jack the Ripper (1994). While he treated Stride as having for and against, in terms of who did it, he concluded she was and also included Martha Tabram in the C5.

In 2005 Keppel wrote a peer-reviewed forensic paper which accepts the C5 and restored Tabram to a JtR victim (yes restores, as she was connected to Nicholas at the start).

In 2011 Robert House writes Scotland Yards Prime Suspect in which he proposes that Fido's dropping of Stride and the writing is not necessary as Jews call other Jews Lipski and could have also done the graffiti. So he sees no conflict and also says its not needed to invoke Cohen.

I think the trend, through analysis of all the information since 1987 is that Stride is a ripper victim and there is no need to drop her just because someone has a Jewish suspect.