Different Killers

[lynn cates]

sets and such

Hello John. Thanks.

Interesting observation. However, the media influence today is far different from then.

Incidentally, should Tom's thesis prove true and many of the WCM were done by a strong armed bully, I'd have no problem. But clearly, Nichols and Chapman are a proper subset and do not belong with the rest.

Nor, I fancy, does "MJK."

Cheers.
LC

[RockySullivan]

Hello Rocky,

I think an important question is whether the men with the barrow existed at all; there is no evidence that the police were informed of the incident or interviewed any suspcts and the report only exits in the Illustrated Police News, which had a reputation for scandalous journalism. In other words, the whole event may simply have been an invention of the publication. Trow also argues that it would be unlikely that anyone would move body parts in front of witnesses. Additionally, if the killer(s) were familiar with the site they may have been able to gain access via a gate that was left unlocked, rather than scaling the 9ft hoarding, which one of the "witnesses" claimed had happened. However, in relation to the unlocked gate, could still only be opened via a complicated string mechanism, although Inspector Marshall was of the opinion that the complex latch could be opened with a bit of persistence.

Regarding the vault, the foreman was of the opinion that it could only be found by someone who had knowledge of the site or who had it described to him in minute detail.

Apparently the vault was difficult to access, I believe you had to go down some steps leading down from the embankment, followed by a slope to get into the building. There was more than one vault in the building site site, which were in effect a warren of catacombs, and the place where the torso was found would require a match even in daylight, i.e. to negotiate the passageways.

Thank u john very interesting. Again we another connection to the embankment which plays a key role in the torso murders. Body parts were found there and Jackson was possibly sleeping there the nights before her murder. I do think torso may have moved parts in front of witnesses, since they were covered in clothing. The technique of hiding in plain sight may have been employed

[Batman]

The spatial-temporal cluster for these murders is like a short term virus. There is no need to add other viruses.

[John G]

Hi John



I`m not aware of the finer details of Brown`s case but did he cut the throat commencing over the left carotid, and was he draping the intestines over the shoulder?
If he was, he was certainly a copy cat, if not, I`d say he was influenced by the Ripper.
I make this distinction because if there was a Ripper copycat 1888-91, he was certainly copying the Ripper down to the minute details, which really only happens in the movies




This would not concern me considering the press and furore the actual Ripper caused at the time. If someone was so inclined anyway, why not whilst the panic was on.



Agreed. Whomever killed Kelly was a very rare kind of nutcase.




Alice McKenzie ?

Hi Jon,

Yes, in addition to McKenzie there is, of course, Coles, where the Killer was clearly interrupted, and Austin, which is a crime that in some ways is eerily reminiscent of Kelly; she was attacked in her bed at Miller's Court, with the vagina and anus being a focus of attention for the killer [Tom Westcott argues that these injuries are similar to the earliest Whitechapel murders (Westcott, 2014)]

However, what we don't observe in any subsequent murder is the surgical skill demonstrated with Chapman and Eddowes and the shear ferocity of the Kelly murder, arguably unprecedented in British criminological history.

In respect of Kelly, why do you think that the attack was less surgical and more frenzied in character than Chapman and Eddowes? Why did the killer display the body parts rather than remove them? Might the ferocity of the attack, combined with the facial disfigurement and removal of the heart, indicate an additional personal motive? Could it be that the killer was developing his objectives, i.e. like Steve Wright when he stripped and posed two victims in crucifix form? For instance, could the killer have arranged such an horrific display, i.e. the display of body parts, for shock value? I believe that it has been argued that the signature characteristic of the Torso murderer was the displaying of body parts, with the intention of shocking whoever saw the body. Perhaps JtR was starting to revel in all the media notoriety that was conferred upon him, and decided to live up to his nickname.

[John G]

I think it's possible that Eddowes planned to meet someone on mitre square but when would she have set up the meeting? Who was she drinking with and why was she so knock out drunk earlier? Eddowes said she knew who the ripper but that seems unlikely she would go with the ripper to her death. Unless she planned some type of meeting with the man as a way to extort money or blackmail him for her silence. That seems a bit ridiculous. So unless eddowes was blitz attacked it's unlikely she knew the rippers identity do you all agree?

john, why do u think the police didn't attach significance to the sighting of the men with the wheelbarrow? When they are described as shift workers what does this indicate about their profession? I find the idea that whitehall vault was accessed by boat very interesting. Was there only one way into the vault? Do you think the parts were left in the vault because it was new Scotland Yard or because the killer had knowledge /previous connection to the building? Or both....
Do you think there is a connection between the stolen tools and the torso? I don't mean to be a broken record...but it did you see the posts where I mentioned that the newspaper found with the torso was from the date Tabrams inquest verdict was printed

Hello Rocky,

I think an important question is whether the men with the barrow existed at all; there is no evidence that the police were informed of the incident or interviewed any suspcts and the report only exits in the Illustrated Police News, which had a reputation for scandalous journalism. In other words, the whole event may simply have been an invention of the publication. Trow also argues that it would be unlikely that anyone would move body parts in front of witnesses. Additionally, if the killer(s) were familiar with the site they may have been able to gain access via a gate that was left unlocked, rather than scaling the 9ft hoarding, which one of the "witnesses" claimed had happened. However, in relation to the unlocked gate, could still only be opened via a complicated string mechanism, although Inspector Marshall was of the opinion that the complex latch could be opened with a bit of persistence.

Regarding the vault, the foreman was of the opinion that it could only be found by someone who had knowledge of the site or who had it described to him in minute detail.

Apparently the vault was difficult to access, I believe you had to go down some steps leading down from the embankment, followed by a slope to get into the building. There was more than one vault in the building site site, which were in effect a warren of catacombs, and the place where the torso was found would require a match even in daylight, i.e. to negotiate the passageways.

[Jon Guy]

Hi John

Copycat killers are certainly very rare, although obviously not unprecedented. Derek Brown murdered two women, one a prostitute he picked up in Whitechapel. The police believed he was seeking to emulate Jack the Ripper: He had borrowed a book entitled Killers: The Most Barbaric Murderers of Our Time."?

I`m not aware of the finer details of Brown`s case but did he cut the throat commencing over the left carotid, and was he draping the intestines over the shoulder?
If he was, he was certainly a copy cat, if not, I`d say he was influenced by the Ripper.
I make this distinction because if there was a Ripper copycat 1888-91, he was certainly copying the Ripper down to the minute details, which really only happens in the movies

However, what concerns me is that it is clearly highly coincidental that a copycat killer would emerge within a few months of the earlier killings. ?

This would not concern me considering the press and furore the actual Ripper caused at the time. If someone was so inclined anyway, why not whilst the panic was on.

Moreover, whoever killed Kelly was clearly deranged, which presents another difficulty:

Agreed. Whomever killed Kelly was a very rare kind of nutcase.

why were there not similar murders after 1888?
?

Alice McKenzie ?

[John G]

Hello Batman. Thanks.

It is NOT the differences that catch my attention--it's the minute similarities regarding Polly and Annie.

Cheers.
LC

The difficulty is that we cannot know what motivated JtR, or why his objectives may have changed. And focussing on similarities is surely based on the assumption that a serial killer's aims and drives will remain immutable; at least if they have demonstrated a high degree of consistency in previous crimes. That doesn't seem to be supported by evidence: for instance, although rare serial killers can sometimes experiment and do things in very different ways with one or more victim, that is not apparent elsewhere in the series, i.e. postmortem genital mutilation or dismemberment: http://www.jaapl.org/content/38/2/239.full.pdf. In fact, there was a major progression between Nichols and Chapman: Chapman's organs were removed.

Steve Wright, the Suffolk Strangler, altered his signature when he stripped and posed, in the form of a crucifix, two of his victims; something that he did not do with his earlier victims. Professor David Wilson believed that he was seeking notoriety and was looking to taunt the investigators -including himself, as he had previously given a TV interview.

If we consider, for instance, the removal and display of Kelly's organs might not this be an example of a serial killer who, inspired by the notoriety conferred upon him by the media, has amended his objectives and is now starting to experiment with the purpose of doing things for shock value?

[John G]

Absolutely.

But there are cases where murderers have been influenced by high profile cases, such as Waddle in Gateshead, even then, he killed the girl he who rejected him and then tried to make it look like a Ripper murder.
But that`s along way from imitating or copying a murder in detail.

In Mary Kelly`s case it`s a bit silly really to believe that someone could pay such attention to details when mutilating Kelly in her room. In fact, if it was an imitator he must have been checking off the injuries from laminated newspaper copies of Dr`s Phillips and Browns inquest testimonies.

Copycat killers are certainly very rare, although obviously not unprecedented. Derek Brown murdered two women, one a prostitute he picked up in Whitechapel. The police believed he was seeking to emulate Jack the Ripper: He had borrowed a book entitled Killers: The Most Barbaric Murderers of Our Time."

However, what concerns me is that it is clearly highly coincidental that a copycat killer would emerge within a few months of the earlier killings. Moreover, whoever killed Kelly was clearly deranged, which presents another difficulty: why were there not similar murders after 1888? And what happened to the murderers of Smith, Tabram, Stride, and Eddowes, if it's postulated that they were killed by a different killer to Nichols and Chapman?

[lynn cates]

similarities

Hello Batman. Thanks.

It is NOT the differences that catch my attention--it's the minute similarities regarding Polly and Annie.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Exactly, a copycat is a post-20 century phenomena without presidence before it.

Absolutely.

But there are cases where murderers have been influenced by high profile cases, such as Waddle in Gateshead, even then, he killed the girl he who rejected him and then tried to make it look like a Ripper murder.
But that`s along way from imitating or copying a murder in detail.

In Mary Kelly`s case it`s a bit silly really to believe that someone could pay such attention to details when mutilating Kelly in her room. In fact, if it was an imitator he must have been checking off the injuries from laminated newspaper copies of Dr`s Phillips and Browns inquest testimonies.

[Batman]

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Are you seriously suggesting that Tiglath-Pileser III never influenced Vlad the Impaler?

Cheers.
LC

Neither are serial killer copycats.

BTW, the autopsy findings of the Ipswitch Murders, 3 without a confirmed cause of death and 2 with, yet all by the same hand, shows that variation in cause of death can still be by the same hand.

[lynn cates]

impaled

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Are you seriously suggesting that Tiglath-Pileser III never influenced Vlad the Impaler?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

bar graph

Hello Jon.

Hmm, are you suggesting that Dame Agatha Christie was a sexual serial killer? Please post bar graph to corroborate. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Hello Batman.

"I think that would seriously compromise any lust murderer view of the C5."

Ooh, mustn't have THAT.

"Which then would have a whole load of retroactive questions like how then could these become a basis for other lust killer investigations where more, sometimes many more, died at the hands of one person?"

Simple. Peter Kurten admitted to having read about "JTR." Wonder if "JTR" read about Kurten?

Cheers.
LC

Exactly, a copycat is a post-20 century phenomena without presidence before it.

The copycat as per your example is separated by country and time. That's more like it. Not this idea of JtRx5 or whatever like that.

[RockySullivan]

I think it's possible that Eddowes planned to meet someone on mitre square but when would she have set up the meeting? Who was she drinking with and why was she so knock out drunk earlier? Eddowes said she knew who the ripper but that seems unlikely she would go with the ripper to her death. Unless she planned some type of meeting with the man as a way to extort money or blackmail him for her silence. That seems a bit ridiculous. So unless eddowes was blitz attacked it's unlikely she knew the rippers identity do you all agree?

john, why do u think the police didn't attach significance to the sighting of the men with the wheelbarrow? When they are described as shift workers what does this indicate about their profession? I find the idea that whitehall vault was accessed by boat very interesting. Was there only one way into the vault? Do you think the parts were left in the vault because it was new Scotland Yard or because the killer had knowledge /previous connection to the building? Or both....
Do you think there is a connection between the stolen tools and the torso? I don't mean to be a broken record...but it did you see the posts where I mentioned that the newspaper found with the torso was from the date Tabrams inquest verdict was printed