Different Killers

[Batman]

By the way, Rumbelow writes that Charles Cross suggested they sit up Polly Nichols, and Robert Paul refused to touch the body. This seems at odds with everything I've here on the boards and in the press reports. A mistake on Rumbelow's part?

I have the edition before that.

What I understand is that Rumbelow in this book has used sources that have since been stolen by other researchers, so his book is treated somewhat as a source now.

[Batman]

forget it....have Robin explain it to you.

Just a wild guess eh? Like the last time?

[Scott Nelson]

forget it....have Robin explain it to you.

[Batman]

correct title

Martin Fido - Crimes, Detection and Death of Jack the Ripper – June, 1987

It's been out of print for Yonkers.

I am certain about his position on the writing because he used the double cockney explanation.

I am almost sure he dropped Stride but if not how did he explain "lipski" in light of a Jewish suspect, Cohen?

[chrismasonic]

Hello Chris.

To quote Bela Lugosi: "For one who has not lived even a single lifetime, you're a wise man, van Helsing." (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Lynn...good enough for Bela Lugosi good enough for me...

Battman...I believe this because authors believe this...not good enough for me...

[Pcdunn]

Possibly Rumbelow's book?

You are not being specific.

Which parts? It was back in 1988 or so that I read it. It is out of print.

What I understood was the following.

Stride not a ripper victim.
Writing not done by ripper but a shopper in the area complaining.
Fido was checking asylum records for late 1888 start of 1889. At the same time he finds Kozminski, Swanson marginallia appears in the press.
Fido opts for Cohen.

Batman, I've just started reading the 2013 edition of Donald Rumbelow's "The Complete Jack the Ripper" (believe that is the title) and he states up front that he has dropped Long Liz as a Ripper victim. Have not read far enough yet to know if the other points in your post are in his book or not.

By the way, Rumbelow writes that Charles Cross suggested they sit up Polly Nichols, and Robert Paul refused to touch the body. This seems at odds with everything I've here on the boards and in the press reports. A mistake on Rumbelow's part?

[Trevor Marriott]

It would mean that the investigators guessed a single hand, investigated a single hand theme and Dr.Bond who is credited with the first attempt at profiling serial killers, all of these people, just happened to stumble upon a framework that would later be expanded upon, developed and used to catch and understand future serial killers. .

A framework that was nothing more than guesswork.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Batman]

Serial killer research stems from this...

Hi Batman,

If you consider all of the attacks I referred to the evidence clearly points to more than one perpetrator being involved. However, it doesn't preclude the possibility that they may be linked in some other way, I.e. gang-related crime.

I think that would seriously compromise any lust murderer view of the C5.

Which then would have a whole load of retroactive questions like how then could these become a basis for other lust killer investigations where more, sometimes many more, died at the hands of one person?

It would mean that the investigators guessed a single hand, investigated a single hand theme and Dr.Bond who is credited with the first attempt at profiling serial killers, all of these people, just happened to stumble upon a framework that would later be expanded upon, developed and used to catch and understand future serial killers. Or they got it right by predicting a single hand and said prediction has been used further with great success.

In most cases like this, especially older cases, the murderer was likely questioned by investigators either in relation to the crime or something similar. However, Whitechapel had a high population densities in doss houses where people with money could come and go. People stayed and passed through these in droves. If JtR, even as a trophy taker, could manage to slip in and out of these, he will never be known, due to sheer volume of people, even in the 1991 census, they are overwhelming.

[John G]

John, what was it about the whitehall torso that indicates two visits? I agree about the possibility of multiple perpetrators... I read on casebook about shift workers seen with a wheelbarrow at whitehall and I'm especially interested in learning more about that.

Hello Rocky,

Trow's book explains that other body parts were found separately to the torso and, as they had almost certainly been there for longer, the killer must have visited the site at least twice. Moreover, the Torso, unlike the other body parts, was not buried, possibly indicating that he was disturbed or that it was left for display purposes.

Trow also considers the evidence of an unnamed witness who, according to the Illustrated Police News, generally considered an unreliable publication with no connection to the police, saw three men outside of the site, two of whom were with a barrow. However, there is no evidence that the police investigated the matter and it seems strange that anyone would move a body that way in front of a witness. Trow considers that the story may be exaggerated or untrue.

If you haven't already got The Thames Torso Murders, by MJ Trow, I can recommend it as a detailed account of this series of murders. It is currently available on Kindle at a very cheap price.

[John G]

The C5 is not a block to accepting other murders and especially attacks but it does indicate one person responsible as a trend which has a successful track record by using the forensic methodology developed from this. I don't think it was a chance guess.

Hi Batman,

If you consider all of the attacks I referred to the evidence clearly points to more than one perpetrator being involved. However, it doesn't preclude the possibility that they may be linked in some other way, I.e. gang-related crime.

[RockySullivan]

Hello Rocky,

Thanks for that. I must admit it's sometime since I read MJ Trow's book on the Torso Murders. Interestingly, Professor Alison, in his Foreword to the book, suggested the killer's signature was the display of body parts. This, of course, provides a link with Kelly's murder, as does the fact that Kelly and the Torso victims were all killed indoors.

Regarding anatomical knowledge, in respect of the Whitehall torso- also discovered in 1888, just 3 days after Champan's murder- Dr Neville was of the opinion that the arm had been recently amputated and that it had been removed from the body with great skill. Interestingly, Keppel et al (2005) refers to the amputation of the breasts, in Kelly's case, and what they regard as attempts to amputate in respect of Eddowes.

The audacious nature of the Whitehall Torso crime- the dump site being the newly constructed Scotland Yard building, which the killer had visited at least twice- is also interesting; like the killer of the C5 and Tabram, this seems to be a murderer who considers they've either little to fear, or is completely reckless. Interestingly, the hoarding around the site where the torso was found was 8 or 9ft high, and there was no sign that it had been damaged. This clearly suggest either an exceptionally strong killer or that more than one person was involved.

Might not this all suggest at least the possibility of gang-related activity? Of course, this could explain differences in MO or signature , as well as the increased likelihood of witnesses being bribed or threatened.

John, what was it about the whitehall torso that indicates two visits? I agree about the possibility of multiple perpetrators... I read on casebook about shift workers seen with a wheelbarrow at whitehall and I'm especially interested in learning more about that.

[John G]

Dear john, you left out the two most similar torso cases: Liz Jackson & Whitehall. both had their uterus removed. Ons theory is their uterus was lost during the dismemberment process both knowing what we do about the ripper i find it much more likely they were removed. And two killers operating simultaneously removing the uterus I just don't see that as a likely. I think we are looking at a ripper who dismembers especially when considering the anatomical knowledge shown in organ removal. It's very possible the ripper gained this knowledge from dismembering. And I wonder if the gap between 1870s and til WCM could be explained by an active period either somewhere else or a way ripper/torso had of disposing body parts that were never found.

Hello Rocky,

Thanks for that. I must admit it's sometime since I read MJ Trow's book on the Torso Murders. Interestingly, Professor Alison, in his Foreword to the book, suggested the killer's signature was the display of body parts. This, of course, provides a link with Kelly's murder, as does the fact that Kelly and the Torso victims were all killed indoors.

Regarding anatomical knowledge, in respect of the Whitehall torso- also discovered in 1888, just 3 days after Champan's murder- Dr Neville was of the opinion that the arm had been recently amputated and that it had been removed from the body with great skill. Interestingly, Keppel et al (2005) refers to the amputation of the breasts, in Kelly's case, and what they regard as attempts to amputate in respect of Eddowes.

The audacious nature of the Whitehall Torso crime- the dump site being the newly constructed Scotland Yard building, which the killer had visited at least twice- is also interesting; like the killer of the C5 and Tabram, this seems to be a murderer who considers they've either little to fear, or is completely reckless. Interestingly, the hoarding around the site where the torso was found was 8 or 9ft high, and there was no sign that it had been damaged. This clearly suggest either an exceptionally strong killer or that more than one person was involved.

Might not this all suggest at least the possibility of gang-related activity? Of course, this could explain differences in MO or signature , as well as the increased likelihood of witnesses being bribed or threatened.

[Batman]

The C5 is not a block to accepting other murders and especially attacks but it does indicate one person responsible as a trend which has a successful track record by using the forensic methodology developed from this. I don't think it was a chance guess.

[RockySullivan]

Dear john, you left out the two most similar torso cases: Liz Jackson & Whitehall. both had their uterus removed. Ons theory is their uterus was lost during the dismemberment process both knowing what we do about the ripper i find it much more likely they were removed. And two killers operating simultaneously removing the uterus I just don't see that as a likely. I think we are looking at a ripper who dismembers especially when considering the anatomical knowledge shown in organ removal. It's very possible the ripper gained this knowledge from dismembering. And I wonder if the gap between 1870s and til WCM could be explained by an active period either somewhere else or a way ripper/torso had of disposing body parts that were never found.

[John G]

However the methodology behind this trend has caught hundreds if not thousands of murderers and brought them to justice for what would be considered unrelated crimes without it.

Whereas the multiple killer hypothesis proposed here is unprecedented.

I think if you consider the shear number of rare and unsolved murders that occurred within just a few years, and within a small geographical area, you are driven to conclude that, at the very least, this was and remains an absolutely extraordinary series of events, the like of which probably hasn't been experienced before or since. As Sir Robert Anderson put it: "But that five successive murders should have been committed, without our having the slightest clue of any kind is extraordinary, if not unique, in the annals of crime."

But why stop at the C5? Consideration surely has to be given to Smith, Horsnell, Millwood, Wilson, Haynes, Tabram, Mylett, McKenzie, Coles, the Pinchin Street Torso, and Austin. Just reflect on the numerous factors that all of the aforementioned attacks have in common: they were all brutal; they were all rare; they were all unsolved (with no serious suspects); they all took place within a small geographical area; and, with the exception of Austin, they all took place within a relatively short time frame (1887-1891).

Just what was going on? Normally I would stay clear of conspiracy theories, but isn't possible that we might be looking at some form of gang-related activity? I mean, wasn't that proposed as a likely explanation for the Torso Murders? And I have to say that having read Tom Westcott's recent book, a book that I was fully prepared to be critical of, I was forced to accept that his thesis is persuasively argued, and the very minimum that could be said is that there are an awful lot of unexplained coincidences and apparent connections.

What I do know, however, is that no two of these crimes are absolutely identical- they all have their differences and similarities- and even if they were that in itself doesn't necessarily imply a single killer. So I suppose in the end it comes down to this one simple question: just how much coincidence are you prepared to accept?