What evidence would it take?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please, see my replies below:



What's your beef with a shorter sailor anyway - that not allowed in the Nordic Rule Book of Serial Killers?

I am sure I am not the only member who thinks your last post is gratuitously condescending as well as unnecessarily repetitive.

I do not recall anyone else writing the same sentence six times in a single post.

Your last remark is the latest in a long list of derisive comments about my belief that as the murderer was fair-haired, he came from a Germanic country.

If someone suggests, contrary to all the evidence, that the murderer was Jewish, his comments are received respectfully.

When I suggest that the murderer was Germanic, there are howls of derision.

[Lewis C]

We do not know that BS man existed!

We are dealing with evidence of what Schwartz said he saw.

According to the police, he said that the man was broad-shouldered; according to a newspaper interview, he said he was stout.

That description obviously does not fit Aaron Kosminski.

I take your point about consorting with prostitutes, but why would Morris Eagle give a pro-Jewish talk, leave the club, throw a prostitute about in the street and shout out 'Lipski' - a well-known anti-Jewish insult - as a man of Jewish appearance passed by?

It is not believable.

I tend to agree that BS man is unlikely to have been Kosminski. I guess it could be argued that we know he was slender later in life but may not have been in 1888, but that seems unlikely to me. I do think that the description of BS man being broad-shouldered and stout is more likely to be accurate than the estimate of his age, if we require that the age estimate be exactly right.

I can't answer your question, but then again, I can't even explain why anyone would shout "Lipski" at a passer-by while throwing a woman to the ground, much less explain why a specific person would do that. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I think it probably did, but it seems like a strange story to me.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I can't answer your question, but then again, I can't even explain why anyone would shout "Lipski" at a passer-by while throwing a woman to the ground, much less explain why a specific person would do that. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I think it probably did, but it seems like a strange story to me.

I think it was the assailant's reaction to realising that he had been seen by someone whom he recognised to be Jewish.

It may have been a form of guilt projection, by which the assailant implied that because of what Lipski had done, the Jew was the real guilty party.

[Lewis C]

I think it was the assailant's reaction to realising that he had been seen by someone whom he recognised to be Jewish.

It may have been a form of guilt projection, by which the assailant implied that because of what Lipski had done, the Jew was the real guilty party.

That could be.

On another matter, even if we could be sure that JtR was fair-haired, why would that mean that he probably came from a Germanic country? There are fair-haired English people too.

[Fiver]

That may be the suggestion that Schwartz mis-heard 'Lizzy' as 'Lipski'.

There is a big difference between the sound of zz and ps in English, especially as Stride's assailant would almost certainly have turned the p into a kind of glottal stop.

If they turned the p into a glottal stop, that means "Lipski" would be pronounced more like "Liski". When said by a drunk, angry man and heard by a frightened man with poor English, mistaking "Lizzy" and "Liski" is credible.

"Lipski" would mean that BS man was anti-semitic.

"Lizzy" would mean that BS man knew Elizabeth Stride.

Neither of which tells us if BS man was Stride's killer, or the Ripper, or if Schwartz made him up.

[Fiver]

He cannot name the witness; he cannot name a single policeman who accompanied Kosminski to the coast, nor a single policeman who was present at the identification, nor even explain why it would have been staged on the coast when it would have been far easier to stage it in London.

The difficulty Swanson writes of is of his own making.

He cannot cite any incriminating evidence, cannot cite any evidence gleaned from the alleged surveillance, does not back up Anderson's claim that the suspect's relatives were involved, and contradicts Anderson about when the suspect was incarcerated and where he was living at the time of the identification.

It is completely unsupported and unbelievable.

Swanson not giving details does not mean events never happened. "Did not" does not equal "can not".

[Fiver]

PWhere is the evidence that Eagle and Kosminski both looked six or seven years older than they were, were both stout and broad-shouldered, both prone to displaying drunkenness in public, were both Jewish anti-Semites, and both consorted with prostitutes?

Nobody is claiming Eagle or Kosminski were Jewish anti-Semites.

Nothing in Schwartz' description tells us if BS Man was regularly drunk or consorted with prostitutes. (I do doubt that prostitutes would consort with Kosminski.)

We have no idea what Eagle or Kosminski's build was, nor how close they looked to their actual age. (A contemporary sketch of Eagle shows a receding hairline.)

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

If they turned the p into a glottal stop, that means "Lipski" would be pronounced more like "Liski". When said by a drunk, angry man and heard by a frightened man with poor English, mistaking "Lizzy" and "Liski" is credible.

"Lipski" would mean that BS man was anti-semitic.

"Lizzy" would mean that BS man knew Elizabeth Stride.

Neither of which tells us if BS man was Stride's killer, or the Ripper, or if Schwartz made him up.

I did not mean a full glottal stop, but a less distinct 'p' sound than when that name is pronounced more correctly.

It could not possibly be mistaken for Lizzy.

As Schwartz was of Jewish appearance, it makes sense that BS would have shouted Lipski while looking in his direction.

It does not make sense that he would have shouted Lizzy while looking in his direction.

It seems unlikely, after realising that he had been seen by Schwartz, that BS would have killed Stride.

I do not see why Schwartz would have made up something like that.

It seems farfetched that in this one murder, the Whitechapel Murderer would make his intentions so obvious.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Swanson not giving details does not mean events never happened. "Did not" does not equal "can not".

Swanson did not mention any of those details because he could not.

It is always the most important details that he leaves out.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Nobody is claiming Eagle or Kosminski were Jewish anti-Semites.

Nothing in Schwartz' description tells us if BS Man was regularly drunk or consorted with prostitutes. (I do doubt that prostitutes would consort with Kosminski.)

We have no idea what Eagle or Kosminski's build was, nor how close they looked to their actual age. (A contemporary sketch of Eagle shows a receding hairline.)

It is being implied that Eagle or Kosminski were Jewish anti-Semites.

Schwartz's account does not tell us that BS got drunk specially for the occasion, but was regularly sober.

We know that Kosminski's eating disorder began around 1885, which means he could hardly have been broad-shouldered or stout in 1888.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

That could be.

On another matter, even if we could be sure that JtR was fair-haired, why would that mean that he probably came from a Germanic country? There are fair-haired English people too.

I agree.

He may have been English.

I base my suspicion on the fact that there were many sailors in the area from Germanic countries, and the wording and spelling of the graffito, which I would argue is more likely to have been written by a German than an Englishman.

[Lewis C]

It is being implied that Eagle or Kosminski were Jewish anti-Semites.

Schwartz's account does not tell us that BS got drunk specially for the occasion, but was regularly sober.

We know that Kosminski's eating disorder began around 1885, which means he could hardly have been broad-shouldered or stout in 1888.

I looked in Ripper Confidential to see if there was any discussion of BS man's likely reason for what he said, and I couldn't find it, but I did find something else of minor interest. Apparently, it was only in the newspaper account of Schwartz's account that BS man is said to have been drunk. It wasn't in the police summary of his account. I would be skeptical of anything in the newspaper account that isn't corroborated anywhere else. The newspaper account also has Pipeman with a knife, which I think is not generally believed.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I looked in Ripper Confidential to see if there was any discussion of BS man's likely reason for what he said, and I couldn't find it, but I did find something else of minor interest. Apparently, it was only in the newspaper account of Schwartz's account that BS man is said to have been drunk. It wasn't in the police summary of his account. I would be skeptical of anything in the newspaper account that isn't corroborated anywhere else. The newspaper account also has Pipeman with a knife, which I think is not generally believed.

You are quite right.

I accept the newspaper report that Schwartz described BS man as stout because the police record has him being broad-shouldered.

I don't see how the reporter could have made that up, exaggerated what Schwartz said, or misunderstood what he told him.

Similarly, the behaviour of BS man as related by Schwartz to the police is entirely consistent with his having been drunk - with a public house situated almost directly opposite the scene of the assault.

[Fiver]

It is being implied that Eagle or Kosminski were Jewish anti-Semites.

Schwartz's account does not tell us that BS got drunk specially for the occasion, but was regularly sober.

No one has implied that Eagle or Kosminski were anti-Semites.

Schwartz did not claim that BS Man was drunk.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

No one has implied that Eagle or Kosminski were anti-Semites.

Schwartz did not claim that BS Man was drunk.

Anyone who claims that it was Eagle or Kosminski who shouted 'Lipski' as a man of Jewish appearance passed by is implying that they were anti-Semitic.

Schwartz was reported to have said that BS Man was drunk.

There is no reason to disbelieve that report and every reason to believe it.