What evidence would it take?

[Aethelwulf]

This is a pretty important question - should probably have its own thread. Here are my criteria for a credible suspect roughly in order of importance (need not be all of these):

1. Doesn’t have an alibi for any C5 murder, and ideally not for the Tabram or McKenzie murders
2. Lived in the area, ideally a little NE of Mitre Square
3. Was male and heterosexual
4. Was known to be either insane or criminally violent
5. Was 22-38 years old in 1888; the closer to 30, the better
6. Has a known connection to the case, especially one that raises suspicion
7. Had at least rudimentary anatomical knowledge

I don't think claiming to be JtR counts for much. There were lots of false confessions.

Some key criteria that are missing:

• Proven murderer and inflicted simialr injuries to at least one of the C5
• Inflicted any similar injuries to any of the 'additional'/non canonical victims/has plausible links to some of the non canonicals
• Fits physical description of killer
• Fits profile of killer

Obviosuly we aren't going to find a suspect that fits all of the criteria that people come up with but some are more important than others.

[John Wheat]

Some key criteria that are missing:

• Proven murderer and inflicted simialr injuries to at least one of the C5
• Inflicted any similar injuries to any of the 'additional'/non canonical victims/has plausible links to some of the non canonicals
• Fits physical description of killer
• Fits profile of killer

Obviosuly we aren't going to find a suspect that fits all of the criteria that people come up with but some are more important than others.

Well Aethelwulf Bury fits all of Lewis C's criteria apart from living a little north of Mitre Square but of course Bury had a horse and cart so traveling from Bow to Whitechapel wouldn't have been a problem.

Cheers John

[Lewis C]

Some key criteria that are missing:

• Proven murderer and inflicted simialr injuries to at least one of the C5
• Inflicted any similar injuries to any of the 'additional'/non canonical victims/has plausible links to some of the non canonicals
• Fits physical description of killer
• Fits profile of killer

Obviosuly we aren't going to find a suspect that fits all of the criteria that people come up with but some are more important than others.

I think it's entirely possible that the Whitechapel murders are the only ones that JtR committed. I agree that all else being equal, someone known to be a murderer is a stronger suspect than someone not known to have killed anyone. If someone is a proven murderer, that would fall under #4.

Some of what I included in the criteria are specific items of what I think is in his profile. How do we know his physical description? He was never caught, and there's no witness that we can be certain saw him. The one that I think is most likely to have seen him is Lawende, so do we just go with his description? I did include one item that matches his description - the closer to 30, the better.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Well Aethelwulf Bury fits all of Lewis C's criteria apart from living a little north of Mitre Square but of course Bury had a horse and cart so traveling from Bow to Whitechapel wouldn't have been a problem.

Cheers John

Fitting a horse and cart in Mitre Square, without anyone noticing, might have been a problem.

[Fiver]

The chalk messages are a sort of confession. I don't buy the ludicrous suggestion that they weren't written by Bury. Bury was suspected at the time. As Abberline didn't really know what he was doing in a serial killer murder investigation his opinion doesn't carry that much weight. Bury reportedly had no alibi's for the C5. It's unlikely that the Ripper wrote any of the Ripper letters. It's unlikely Mackenzie was a Ripper victim. So we have a suspect who fits all your points.

Other acts of violence - Yes, Bury killed his wife. There are differences in MO, but MO can change over time.

Suspected at the time - Yes, by the press. However, the police investigated and rejected Bury as being the Ripper.

Claimed to be the Ripper - No. Early press reports claimed Bury had told the police that he was the Ripper, but the police said those press reports were in error.

Lack of an alibi - unknown. We don't know why Abberline rejected Bury as a suspect. Perhaps Bury had an alibi for some of the killings.

Died or incarcerated shortly after the death of the last victim - Yes.

Feel free to give your reasoning as to why the chalk messages were written by Bury. Before his execution, Bury confessed to killing his wife. Bury never confessed to being the Ripper.

None of the police of the time really knew how to investigate a serial killer. Even today, serial killers are usually caught by their own errors or dumb luck, not by deduction. Abberline was brought in on the case since he was an experienced officer with a good knowledge of the area. That doesn't mean he's right, but his opinions shouldn't be dismissed without examination.

[Abby Normal]

Other acts of violence - Yes, Bury killed his wife. There are differences in MO, but MO can change over time.

Suspected at the time - Yes, by the press. However, the police investigated and rejected Bury as being the Ripper.

Claimed to be the Ripper - No. Early press reports claimed Bury had told the police that he was the Ripper, but the police said those press reports were in error.

Lack of an alibi - unknown. We don't know why Abberline rejected Bury as a suspect. Perhaps Bury had an alibi for some of the killings.

Died or incarcerated shortly after the death of the last victim - Yes.

Feel free to give your reasoning as to why the chalk messages were written by Bury. Before his execution, Bury confessed to killing his wife. Bury never confessed to being the Ripper.

None of the police of the time really knew how to investigate a serial killer. Even today, serial killers are usually caught by their own errors or dumb luck, not by deduction. Abberline was brought in on the case since he was an experienced officer with a good knowledge of the area. That doesn't mean he's right, but his opinions shouldn't be dismissed without examination.

the police nor Abberline never "rejected Bury as a suspect".

[John Wheat]

Fitting a horse and cart in Mitre Square, without anyone noticing, might have been a problem.

It would have been simple to park up a horse and cart somewhere close by and then walk to Mitre Square or didn't you think of that?

[John Wheat]

Other acts of violence - Yes, Bury killed his wife. There are differences in MO, but MO can change over time.

Suspected at the time - Yes, by the press. However, the police investigated and rejected Bury as being the Ripper.

Claimed to be the Ripper - No. Early press reports claimed Bury had told the police that he was the Ripper, but the police said those press reports were in error.

Lack of an alibi - unknown. We don't know why Abberline rejected Bury as a suspect. Perhaps Bury had an alibi for some of the killings.

Died or incarcerated shortly after the death of the last victim - Yes.

Feel free to give your reasoning as to why the chalk messages were written by Bury. Before his execution, Bury confessed to killing his wife. Bury never confessed to being the Ripper.

None of the police of the time really knew how to investigate a serial killer. Even today, serial killers are usually caught by their own errors or dumb luck, not by deduction. Abberline was brought in on the case since he was an experienced officer with a good knowledge of the area. That doesn't mean he's right, but his opinions shouldn't be dismissed without examination.

I just don't buy the argument that the chalk messages weren't written by Bury. The chalk messages reportedly predated Ellen Bury's murder. Bury is clearly the best suspect we have.

[Aethelwulf]

Suspected at the time - Yes, by the press. However, the police investigated and rejected Bury as being the Ripper.

Abberline was brought in on the case since he was an experienced officer with a good knowledge of the area. That doesn't mean he's right, but his opinions shouldn't be dismissed without examination.

Hi Fiver,

It is a common misconception that Bury was investigated and exonerated. Also, we don't actually know what Aberline's opinion of Bury. It's a bit misleading to say that Abberline dismissed Bury. Abberline dismissing Bury would be some text saying 'investigated Bury, all clear' sort of thing. Abberline not mentioning Bury 14 years after his death is not an exoneration. To be fair, Chapman was a serial killer and would have been more immediate to Abberline. Bury didn't have a conclusion as the expected confession never came. All we know for certain about Abberline and Bury is that he took statements from Haynes and Martin. The work of Norman Hastings, who spoke directly to detectives that worked on the Bury case, shows that the police strongly suspcetd Bury. Unfortunetley it seems that these were the rank and file that didn't leave memoirs. That senior officials can have a very different (and incorrect view) to those actaully doing the leg work is demonstrated in the Sutcliffe case.

Rather than the police investiagting Bury and rejecting him, the opposite appears to be true (bear in mind Hastings actually thought the ripper was a cattleman that came and went by boat, so he wasn't pushing Bury to his agenda, it just seems like a solid piece of investiagtive work) (from Steve Earp's website):

• A dozen experienced men were sent by Scotland Yard “to make the necessary inquiries”
• The Scotland Yard detectives who investigated Bury “kept their own counsel, and when Bury came up for trial it was the common opinion that he was guilty of the Whitechapel crimes and would make a full confession in the event of his being condemned to death”
• “the facts they (SY) gathered pointed more and more clearly to Bury being Jack the Ripper, but it was a slow task, entailing months of work, and they had been ordered to make nothing public”
• Scotland Yard knew where Bury was staying on the night of the Chapman murder, but it had also “established where he had been staying on the nights of three other of the Whitechapel murders, and from the recollection of those who lived nearby, it was quite possible that he had the opportunity to commit them”
• “On the day before his execution two detectives were sent from London to be present should he make a last statement. This I myself only learned years afterwards, so carefully guarded was the secret, but it shows the importance Scotland Yard attached to their discoveries”
• According to Hangman Berry the detectives sent from London to investigate Bury's movements asked Berry for his opinion, he replied, 'I think it is him right enough', 'And we agree with you', replied one of the detectives, 'We know all about his movements in the past, and we are quite satisfied that you have hanged Jack the Ripper’

The other intersting points from Hastings:

• “In height and build he answered the description of the suspect seen after two of the murders”
• The home of Bury in the East End at the time of the Hanbury Street murder was traced, and again it was ascertained that on that night Bury had kept away from his home, and his manner on his return home the next afternoon suggested a madman
• “on one occasion when he was definitely known to be staying in the East End at the time of a Ripper crime, he had absented himself from the house for that night in the most suspicious manner”
• “had established the fact that he was missing from his lodgings on the night that Marie Kelly was done to death in her home in Dorset Street”
• “his description was very like that of the man who had been speaking to the young woman Kelly on the night of the crime”
• Scotland Yard learned that after returning to London following his August 1888 trip to Wolverhampton, Bury “had apparently constantly changed his address and although the police were able to trace several of these, there were important gaps in his history which they were never able to fill
• he was in the habit of walking about very quietly and had often frightened people by his silent approach”

Despite the most compelling police interest for any suspect, Bury appears to suffer from not being mentioned by some blow hard tool like Anderson. However, it would appear those doing the hard work on Bury, the ones that didn't leave memoirs, thought he was the ripper, but their names are lost to. Abberline may have strongly suspected Bury before 1903 but changed his mind with the arrest of Chapman. You would think it likely that Abberline was in charge of the Bury investiagtion given that he took statements, and likely that it was he who 'sent' detectives to his execution and 'ordered' those investigating him to make nothing public. That is perhaps some indication that Bury was of strong interest to him. Despite what people say, there is no evidence Bury was cleared. As I said, I think it more likely that without the confession it was left open and Chapman filled that gap in Abberline's mind as as serial killer.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

It would have been simple to park up a horse and cart somewhere close by and then walk to Mitre Square or didn't you think of that?

And no-one noticed a horse and cart parked there?

Pc Harvey did not notice it on his beat.

Pc Watkins did not notice it on his beat.

Lawende and his friends did not notice it.


Didn't you think of that?

[John Wheat]

And no-one noticed a horse and cart parked there?

Pc Harvey did not notice it on his beat.

Pc Watkins did not notice it on his beat.

Lawende and his friends did not notice it.


Didn't you think of that?

There were plenty of places in Whitechapel where you could leave a horse and cart. I think you'll find a horse and cart parked in Whitechapel in 1888 would not arise suspicion.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

There were plenty of places in Whitechapel where you could leave a horse and cart. I think you'll find a horse and cart parked in Whitechapel in 1888 would not arise suspicion.

We were talking about the City of London, not Whitechapel, but in any case no-one noticed a horse and cart near Miller's Court or Buck's Row or Berner Street either.

There is a difference between seeing a parked horse and cart during the day and seeing them in the early hours of the morning, in proximity to the place where a murder is being committed.

[Aethelwulf]

There were plenty of places in Whitechapel where you could leave a horse and cart. I think you'll find a horse and cart parked in Whitechapel in 1888 would not arise suspicion.

In reality it seems Bury had other bases. His permanent address was Spanby road from August 1888 but:

• Scotland Yard learned that after returning to London following his August 1888 trip to Wolverhampton, Bury “had apparently constantly changed his address and although the police were able to trace several of these, there were important gaps in his history which they were never able to fill.

He was no doubt stabling his horse elsewhere at these other addresses and going about on foot

[John Wheat]

We were talking about the City of London, not Whitechapel, but in any case no-one noticed a horse and cart near Miller's Court or Buck's Row or Berner Street either.

There is a difference between seeing a parked horse and cart during the day and seeing them in the early hours of the morning, in proximity to the place where a murder is being committed.

I still don't think a horse and cart would have sparked that much interest however I refer you to Aethelwulf's last post.

[John Wheat]

In reality it seems Bury had other bases. His permanent address was Spanby road from August 1888 but:

• Scotland Yard learned that after returning to London following his August 1888 trip to Wolverhampton, Bury “had apparently constantly changed his address and although the police were able to trace several of these, there were important gaps in his history which they were never able to fill.

He was no doubt stabling his horse elsewhere at these other addresses and going about on foot

Thanks for the info Aethelwulf.