Crime Waves

[Barnaby]

Hi Lynn,

While an interesting theory, I don't know how you could label this as excellent when it contains a number of factual inaccuracies in but a short amount of text (hit on the head with a stone? found the next day?).

Barnaby

[lynn cates]

puzzle

Hello GUT. Thanks.

Yes, one of a great many puzzles.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

devil in the details

Hello PCFT. Thanks.

Of course, there are different accounts of the details.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thinking

Hello Baranby. Thanks.

Actually, the epithet refers to the author's being able to think in non-stereotypical ways.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Michael, can not killing be a motive in its own right? Its a great taboo yet can be euphoric to those that cross that line, we are emotive creatures and if an ultimate feeling is found by death and butchery would that not be seeked and the opportunity taken if given?

Hi PC,

I would think that the desire to kill would fall under some variety of mental illness, which isnt necessary to commit murder, as I was attempting to explain. Normal everyday people commit murders far more frequently than people with those kinds of illnesses. For example, for retribution, envy, greed, lust, ...etc. They may also commit other indecencies to the corpse to conceal the actual motive for the murder...like chopping up a body to dispose of it. The point being, most kills are for very simple explainable reasons, and anything that they do to the body afterward may well be for reasons other than merely a desire to do so.

Those motives are seemingly absent in the murders of Polly and Annie, because a man picked up strangers to kill and mutilate them. Was Liz Stride killed by someone she didnt know? We dont know. Was Kate..we dont know...was Mary, that is pretty likely considering her location and physical demeanor. In truth we dont know that any of the Canonicals were killed by strangers, but in the cases I mentioned, it seems the most logical answer.

Cheers

[PC Fitzroy-Toye]

Thanks Michael I do agree that normal people are very capable of such an act as Im burdened with the knowlege of murders of people close to me or that I knew well, but of those that commited it I would say even if outwardly normal they did and do have an underlying instability which circumstance and emotional stress bought forth.

[PC Fitzroy-Toye]

Hello PCFT. Thanks.

Of course, there are different accounts of the details.

Cheers.
LC

Yes I agree, and I need to go over things more than once for things to take to memory and have read one of the dissertations on here about MJK and her heart ,still reawakening myself to the case and its good to discuss it with people of differing views and theorems as it makes you consider the case with a broader perspective.

[GUT]

G'Day Michael

I would think that the desire to kill would fall under some variety of mental illness, which isnt necessary to commit murder, as I was attempting to explain. Normal everyday people commit murders far more frequently than people with those kinds of illnesses. For example, for retribution, envy, greed, lust, ...etc. They may also commit other indecencies to the corpse to conceal the actual motive for the murder...like chopping up a body to dispose of it. The point being, most kills are for very simple explainable reasons, and anything that they do to the body afterward may well be for reasons other than merely a desire to do so.

So true but I would add anger/loss of control.

[Michael W Richards]

G'Day Michael

So true but I would add anger/loss of control.

Rage mate, thats the ticket to many violent mistakes...it can make monsters from mice, its why we have within our Criminal System the defensive posture of the term Temporary Insanity.

My guess has been for some time that the cause of the death of Liz Stride might well be a case of momentary rage.

And as I said, many of these types of murders end with some form of defacing or damage to the deceased...but they are not committed for that reason. The early murders, C1 and C2, seem to be bereft of rage to me..there is a clinical disposition. I think thats why the authorities suspected someone very accustomed to cutting up people or animals.

Cheers GUT

[GUT]

G'Day Michael

Except to plead insanity, temporary or otherwise, you must satisfy M'Naghten ie not have the capacity, at the time of the offence, to know right from wrong.

[lynn cates]

good idea

Hello PCFT. Thanks.

Yes, that is always good.

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Ive said it before and Ill say it again......killing strangers to satisfy whatever psychological demons the killer has are rare types of murders, there are many, many more mundane and pedestrian reasons for killing that make up the majority of any years murder statistics...

...Jealousy, rage, greed, power seeking, religious differences, property disputes, ....there are so many common themes I for one dont assume a Unicorn when a Horse fits the bill just as well.

Hi Mike,

I'm not sure whether you believe men who kill strangers for the hell of it don't actually exist, or that Unicorns do exist but are a rare type of horse.

Surely a fairer analogy would feature a horse and a zebra. But then most of us would assume a zebra in this case and maybe a couple of horses, while you would see a succession of black and white striped horses.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Rage mate, thats the ticket to many violent mistakes...it can make monsters from mice, its why we have within our Criminal System the defensive posture of the term Temporary Insanity.

My guess has been for some time that the cause of the death of Liz Stride might well be a case of momentary rage.

And as I said, many of these types of murders end with some form of defacing or damage to the deceased...but they are not committed for that reason. The early murders, C1 and C2, seem to be bereft of rage to me..there is a clinical disposition. I think thats why the authorities suspected someone very accustomed to cutting up people or animals.

So some unknown man who had never killed before was, in your view, quite likely to have gone into a momentary rage and cut Stride's throat, but another unknown man who had killed before, at least twice, was unlikely to have gone into a momentary rage for any reason and committed a similar act of violence, even though we know he was capable?

I'd love to know what evidence you have, Mike, for the latter killer being the sort of calm and even-tempered cove who would never hurt a fly when he wasn't busy gutting prostitutes.

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

So some unknown man who had never killed before was, in your view, quite likely to have gone into a momentary rage and cut Stride's throat, but another unknown man who had killed before, at least twice, was unlikely to have gone into a momentary rage for any reason and committed a similar act of violence, even though we know he was capable?

I'd love to know what evidence you have, Mike, for the latter killer being the sort of calm and even-tempered cove who would never hurt a fly when he wasn't busy gutting prostitutes.

Love,

Caz
X

Actually Caz I am on the fence about Kate, have been for some time, and made no effort to disguise it. But lets not claim that her murder and Liz Strides murder resemble each other in any meaningful way.... as suggested by your "a similar act of violence".

I do see evidence of malice or spite or whatever you wish to call it with Kate, the nose and the colon section seem unnecessary. Thats one reason why I am on the fence....Polly and Annie had wounds were created to kill and to enable access and extraction....there were few superfluous cuts. I see much more control in the cuts on those earlier victims as well, maybe due to the very poor lighting, maybe not.

The evidence in the Stride case does not point to her having been killed by a serial mutilator Caz. A second murder in the vicinity is what created that supposition. The evidence suggests that she had her scarf pulled tight and twisted and she then had a knife run across her throat as she fell or lay on the ground. That could well be the result of a momentary reaction by someone inclined towards violent behavior. Since it happened on the property of men who the neighbors and the police thought ill of, maybe not so far fetched. But Kates murder cannot be categorized as such.

If the Stride evidence can be interpreted as a momentary loss of self control by a killer, why then inject someone else into the story with an established agenda that apparently wasnt completed... or even attempted?

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike,

I'm not sure whether you believe men who kill strangers for the hell of it don't actually exist, or that Unicorns do exist but are a rare type of horse.


X

I can say without equivocation that I do not see the murders of Mary Ann Nichols or Annie Chapman as the result of someone who merely kills for the hell of it. Particularly not in the Chapman case. Killing Annie was just a step in a process, not a goal unto itself.

Cheers