Conditions in London in 1888

[sidbolt123]

From what I've read/watched about JTR I find it amazing how not one person was able to see him walking the streets, or how some victims seem to have been cloaked in the darkness of nighttime unless someone with a lantern was nearby and saw the body (Mary Ann Nichols, Elizabeth Stride). My question is just how easy was it to roam the streets unnoticed? Its impossible for me imagine such darkness with how artificial lighting is present in our every day lives these days I was wondering if someone more knowledgeable could explain to me how London in 1888 seemed like the perfect playground for a serial killer.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The streets were mostly very poorly lit Sid and gas lamps didn’t throw out that much light compared to modern day lighting. Especially the backstreets. There was a call for better lighting which, if I remember correctly, Queen Victoria supported. Today we have open windows throwing out light, neon shop signs and powerful lamps every few yards which would have seemed like Blackpool illuminations to a Victorian.

Its also true to say that we can’t know that no one saw him. It’s just the case that no one saw anyone that they had reason at the time to think was connected to a murder. We have sightings by Lawende, Schwartz, Long and Hutchinson to name four. We can’t say for certain that they saw the killer but it’s certainly possible. As you say though, it was the perfect location for a serial killer. He couldn’t really have designed it better himself.

[Abby Normal]

The streets were mostly very poorly lit Sid and gas lamps didn’t throw out that much light compared to modern day lighting. Especially the backstreets. There was a call for better lighting which, if I remember correctly, Queen Victoria supported. Today we have open windows throwing out light, neon shop signs and powerful lamps every few yards which would have seemed like Blackpool illuminations to a Victorian.

Its also true to say that we can’t know that no one saw him. It’s just the case that no one saw anyone that they had reason at the time to think was connected to a murder. We have sightings by Lawende, Schwartz, Long and Hutchinson to name four. We can’t say for certain that they saw the killer but it’s certainly possible. As you say though, it was the perfect location for a serial killer. He couldn’t really have designed it better himself.

hi herlock and sid
I think Lawende, long, marshall, smith and schwartz all saw the ripper. i dont think he was seen at nichols and kelly murders (just possibly cox here). while conditions like lighting and maze of alley ways helped, I think it has more to do with a combination of the ripper knowing the area like the back of his hand and being incredibly perceptive and crafty. and lucky of course.
but he did seem to have an incredible knack for knowing just when to skidaddle.

[Wickerman]

Hello Sid, Welcome.

Rather than envision a character who was not seen by anyone - highly unlikely given the busy streets. I think he was seen by several, it's just that they didn't know they had seen him. In those days you only need to make it to the end of the street, once you turned the corner, you were effectively someone else. Just stop, and walk slowly like every body else. Don't draw attention to yourself.
It doesn't appear he would be covered in blood, but even butchers, slaughter-house workers & midwives, with blood on their clothes could walk the darkened streets without drawing attention to themselves.
It's more likely he 'hid in plain sight'.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Sid, Welcome.

Rather than envision a character who was not seen by anyone - highly unlikely given the busy streets. I think he was seen by several, it's just that they didn't know they had seen him. In those days you only need to make it to the end of the street, once you turned the corner, you were effectively someone else. Just stop, and walk slowly like every body else. Don't draw attention to yourself.
It doesn't appear he would be covered in blood, but even butchers, slaughter-house workers & midwives, with blood on their clothes could walk the darkened streets without drawing attention to themselves.
It's more likely he 'hid in plain sight'.

agree. he was probably an average local joe, who could blend into tje crowd.

[harry]

There is a difference between being seen and being recognised.It was quite easy to move around in such conditions as has been spoken of,and providing one kept a reasonable distance from passers by,be seen ,but keep their identity unknown.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It’s one of the reasons that I’ve always been wary of any assumption that he must have been a local. Someone who actually lived within that fairly small area would surely have been aware of the risk, however small maybe, of being recognised. There’s a huge difference after all of someone like Long or Lawende saying ‘I saw a man who was average build, dark hair, moustache etc,’ and the same witness saying ‘I saw a man who looked just like Fred …….. who works at the market.” Would that deter a killer? I’m unsure but it might be worth asking how many serial killers killed within such a small area whilst living in the middle somewhere? I know of geoprofiling of course but does it usually encompass such a small area? Local knowledge might have given the killer some advantage of course but that doesn’t mean that he had to have lived in Whitechapel/Spitalfields. Bury is an obvious example.

[Abby Normal]

It’s one of the reasons that I’ve always been wary of any assumption that he must have been a local. Someone who actually lived within that fairly small area would surely have been aware of the risk, however small maybe, of being recognised. There’s a huge difference after all of someone like Long or Lawende saying ‘I saw a man who was average build, dark hair, moustache etc,’ and the same witness saying ‘I saw a man who looked just like Fred …….. who works at the market.” Would that deter a killer? I’m unsure but it might be worth asking how many serial killers killed within such a small area whilst living in the middle somewhere? I know of geoprofiling of course but does it usually encompass such a small area? Local knowledge might have given the killer some advantage of course but that doesn’t mean that he had to have lived in Whitechapel/Spitalfields. Bury is an obvious example.

but didnt burys work as a saw dust salesman and other evidence point to he was in whitchapel area on almost a daily basis?

[Herlock Sholmes]

but didnt burys work as a saw dust salesman and other evidence point to he was in whitchapel area on almost a daily basis?

He could have been Abby, I can’t remember to be honest. Wulf will know.

[Aethelwulf]

He could have been Abby, I can’t remember to be honest. Wulf will know.

He was working for James Martin as a hawker of sawdust from October 1887 and then after his marriage Ellen bought him his own horse and cart. There are no records of where he was actually selling the stuff. I suspect his total hours worked selling sawdust after his marriage were 0. All he needed to do was take Ellen to the bank to cash in her shares and he had all the money he wanted. Reading the trial notes, I get the feeling Bury though rather a lot of himself and I can't see him doing something as menial as carting sawdust about when he had Ellen's money (~40K today). In Dundee, Ellen said he had a horse and cart and sold sawdust and did well from it - I suspect the money he may have showed to her as his 'earnings' was actually her money. He probably told her he was working as a cover to do whatever he wanted. Norman Hastings, the journalist who talked to Scotland Yard detectives who worked on the Bury case found out that:

'Scotland Yard was not able to establish that Bury actually worked—“if he carried on a business as a sawdust merchant the police were certainly never able to verify it” (from Bury website)

As for his going into Whitechapel, there area accounts of him assaulting Ellen there.

Hastings also found out that Bury may have had other addresses apart from his permanent one in Bow:

Scotland Yard learned that after returning to London following his August 1888 trip to Wolverhampton, Bury “had apparently constantly changed his address and although the police were able to trace several of these, there were important gaps in his history which they were never able to fill” (Bury website)

So he may have had a bolt hole, although we don't know where they were. However, from the comment below, I think they must have been within or near Whitechapel as the police considered Bury may have had the opportunity to commit the crimes:

Hastings wrote that Scotland Yard had not only been able to establish where Bury was staying on the night of the Chapman murder, but it had also “established where he had been staying on the nights of three other of the Whitechapel murders, and from the recollection of those who lived nearby, it was quite possible that he had the opportunity to commit them” (Bury webiste)

So I think Bury knew the area well from his drinking and earlier employment with Martin and had a some hideaway somewhere. I suspect what he may have done is gone back to his bolt hole after each murder, cleaned up and then headed back to Bow.

As to the problem of recognition, I think that is why the murders stopped. There are two important questions: 1) what would the ripper most likely do after Kelly; and 2) what would scare him off? After what he would have perceived as his glorious success with Kelly, surely he would try again. As for what would scare him off - a handful of people who got a really good look at him and could ID him. Although the police dismissed it, I think Farmer is the answer. The man's description fits: respectable dress, fair moustache, 5-4 to 5-6, stout, billycock hat, neck tie, about 30. If you read the papers he let her get into bed while he stayed up and then tried to cut her throat. I suspect the same method was used on Kelly given she was in bed clothes. The difference may have been that in Kelly's there was light (fire) whereas Farmer's room was described as totally black by the first person up there.

Anyway, wandered well off topic.

[Herlock Sholmes]

He was working for James Martin as a hawker of sawdust from October 1887 and then after his marriage Ellen bought him his own horse and cart. There are no records of where he was actually selling the stuff. I suspect his total hours worked selling sawdust after his marriage were 0. All he needed to do was take Ellen to the bank to cash in her shares and he had all the money he wanted. Reading the trial notes, I get the feeling Bury though rather a lot of himself and I can't see him doing something as menial as carting sawdust about when he had Ellen's money (~40K today). In Dundee, Ellen said he had a horse and cart and sold sawdust and did well from it - I suspect the money he may have showed to her as his 'earnings' was actually her money. He probably told her he was working as a cover to do whatever he wanted. Norman Hastings, the journalist who talked to Scotland Yard detectives who worked on the Bury case found out that:

'Scotland Yard was not able to establish that Bury actually worked—“if he carried on a business as a sawdust merchant the police were certainly never able to verify it” (from Bury website)

As for his going into Whitechapel, there area accounts of him assaulting Ellen there.

Hastings also found out that Bury may have had other addresses apart from his permanent one in Bow:

Scotland Yard learned that after returning to London following his August 1888 trip to Wolverhampton, Bury “had apparently constantly changed his address and although the police were able to trace several of these, there were important gaps in his history which they were never able to fill” (Bury website)

So he may have had a bolt hole, although we don't know where they were. However, from the comment below, I think they must have been within or near Whitechapel as the police considered Bury may have had the opportunity to commit the crimes:

Hastings wrote that Scotland Yard had not only been able to establish where Bury was staying on the night of the Chapman murder, but it had also “established where he had been staying on the nights of three other of the Whitechapel murders, and from the recollection of those who lived nearby, it was quite possible that he had the opportunity to commit them” (Bury webiste)

So I think Bury knew the area well from his drinking and earlier employment with Martin and had a some hideaway somewhere. I suspect what he may have done is gone back to his bolt hole after each murder, cleaned up and then headed back to Bow.

As to the problem of recognition, I think that is why the murders stopped. There are two important questions: 1) what would the ripper most likely do after Kelly; and 2) what would scare him off? After what he would have perceived as his glorious success with Kelly, surely he would try again. As for what would scare him off - a handful of people who got a really good look at him and could ID him. Although the police dismissed it, I think Farmer is the answer. The man's description fits: respectable dress, fair moustache, 5-4 to 5-6, stout, billycock hat, neck tie, about 30. If you read the papers he let her get into bed while he stayed up and then tried to cut her throat. I suspect the same method was used on Kelly given she was in bed clothes. The difference may have been that in Kelly's there was light (fire) whereas Farmer's room was described as totally black by the first person up there.

Anyway, wandered well off topic.

Cheers Wulf

[sidbolt123]

It’s one of the reasons that I’ve always been wary of any assumption that he must have been a local. Someone who actually lived within that fairly small area would surely have been aware of the risk, however small maybe, of being recognised. There’s a huge difference after all of someone like Long or Lawende saying ‘I saw a man who was average build, dark hair, moustache etc,’ and the same witness saying ‘I saw a man who looked just like Fred …….. who works at the market.” Would that deter a killer? I’m unsure but it might be worth asking how many serial killers killed within such a small area whilst living in the middle somewhere? I know of geoprofiling of course but does it usually encompass such a small area? Local knowledge might have given the killer some advantage of course but that doesn’t mean that he had to have lived in Whitechapel/Spitalfields. Bury is an obvious example.

Thats something I always thought about as well when reading profiles on the killer. Correct me if im wrong but I remember reading that the killer must have been a local or at least familiar with the area, and most likely didn't have family who could question his whereabouts at the times of the murders. It would make more sense if he wasnt a local and could somehow convince his family he was away for work related reasons, at least in my head.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thats something I always thought about as well when reading profiles on the killer. Correct me if im wrong but I remember reading that the killer must have been a local or at least familiar with the area, and most likely didn't have family who could question his whereabouts at the times of the murders. It would make more sense if he wasnt a local and could somehow convince his family he was away for work related reasons, at least in my head.

It not a case of he must have been local Sid, but many think that it’s likelier that he was. He certainly could have been. Also that local knowledge might have given him an advantage in navigating the backstreets. Personally I can’t see any way of judging whether he was a local or not. We know that Kosminski was a local, Bury was in nearby Bow but visited Whitechapel and modern suspects like Lechmere and Hutchinson were certainly locals.

[Abby Normal]

It not a case of he must have been local Sid, but many think that it’s likelier that he was. He certainly could have been. Also that local knowledge might have given him an advantage in navigating the backstreets. Personally I can’t see any way of judging whether he was a local or not. We know that Kosminski was a local, Bury was in nearby Bow but visited Whitechapel and modern suspects like Lechmere and Hutchinson were certainly locals.

as usual a very reasonable post Herlock.

Of course, I favor a local suspect for many obvious reasons, that ive stated in the past, and my top tier of least weak suspects are all locals: Hutch, Bury, Koz, chapman, Kelly and lech, but I dont rule out non locals, especially valid suspects like Druitt who we know had business there.

[harry]

A person could reside local,yet not be a local.How long does it take to become familiar with a district such as Whitechapel?