Conditions in London in 1888

[Ozzy]

Something I have read in a few books were the rules, or lack of them, when it comes to building and planning. It meant that even on a summer afternoon, in some places in the East End you didn't get as much sun light reaching the ground as you do now as it was so built up.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Canonical five lodgings around time of death shown as V, W, X, Y, Z.
B is Chapman murder site, and E is MJK.

Could it be possible that Jack lived in this area and knew the victims??

Cheers, George

'Should have said, George, surely that is not a coincidence when the following are considered: rarity of murder, number of lodging houses in the area and number of prostitutes operating outside of that immediate vicinity. 'Maybe someone well acquainted with the lodging houses and even followed the victims prior to their murder. Having said that, Catherine wouldn't fit.

[MrBarnett]

25+ years.

A week would suffice.

[MrBarnett]

At the Catherine murder scene, by the time the police had a co-ordinated search underway it was around 20 minutes after the murder. That's easily enough time for the WM to have been long gone.

Given that he operated when it was dark, the WM had the advantage of being able to hear footsteps approaching and so he could disappear before a witness/policeman was on top of him. In the absence of catching him red handed, there wasn't a lot the police could do.

In terms of being local, I don't think he necessarily had to be given the aforementioned points. I don't think the WM necessarily used an extensive knowledge of the streets in order to get around.

What may point to him being local, however, is connections between the victims and particularly the lodging houses, e.g. 35 Dorset Street. Tom Wescott pointed out that four women who lived at 18 and 19 George Street were assaulted in a short space of time, three of them murdered. Given that murder was rare in Victorian London, that really is extraordinary.

I couldn’t agree more re the local knowledge. What kind of local knowledge could have prevented the killer from being caught in the back yard of Hanbury Street, or on his way out through the passageway? Once out in the street the choice is simply turn left or right.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Canonical five lodgings around time of death shown as V, W, X, Y, Z.
B is Chapman murder site, and E is MJK.

Could it be possible that Jack lived in this area and knew the victims??

Cheers, George

Possible, George. I've often wondered whether or not he knew Mary and was a friend. 'Not murdered out of revenge or anything like that, but the only way the WM was able to achieve his goal and so Mary was expendable.

[GBinOz]

What may point to him being local, however, is connections between the victims and particularly the lodging houses, e.g. 35 Dorset Street. Tom Wescott pointed out that four women who lived at 18 and 19 George Street were assaulted in a short space of time, three of them murdered. Given that murder was rare in Victorian London, that really is extraordinary.

Canonical five lodgings around time of death shown as V, W, X, Y, Z.
B is Chapman murder site, and E is MJK.

Could it be possible that Jack lived in this area and knew the victims??

Cheers, George

[DJA]

A person could reside local,yet not be a local.How long does it take to become familiar with a district such as Whitechapel?

25+ years.

[Fleetwood Mac]

At the Catherine murder scene, by the time the police had a co-ordinated search underway it was around 20 minutes after the murder. That's easily enough time for the WM to have been long gone.

Given that he operated when it was dark, the WM had the advantage of being able to hear footsteps approaching and so he could disappear before a witness/policeman was on top of him. In the absence of catching him red handed, there wasn't a lot the police could do.

In terms of being local, I don't think he necessarily had to be given the aforementioned points. I don't think the WM necessarily used an extensive knowledge of the streets in order to get around.

What may point to him being local, however, is connections between the victims and particularly the lodging houses, e.g. 35 Dorset Street. Tom Wescott pointed out that four women who lived at 18 and 19 George Street were assaulted in a short space of time, three of them murdered. Given that murder was rare in Victorian London, that really is extraordinary.

[harry]

A person could reside local,yet not be a local.How long does it take to become familiar with a district such as Whitechapel?

[Abby Normal]

It not a case of he must have been local Sid, but many think that it’s likelier that he was. He certainly could have been. Also that local knowledge might have given him an advantage in navigating the backstreets. Personally I can’t see any way of judging whether he was a local or not. We know that Kosminski was a local, Bury was in nearby Bow but visited Whitechapel and modern suspects like Lechmere and Hutchinson were certainly locals.

as usual a very reasonable post Herlock.

Of course, I favor a local suspect for many obvious reasons, that ive stated in the past, and my top tier of least weak suspects are all locals: Hutch, Bury, Koz, chapman, Kelly and lech, but I dont rule out non locals, especially valid suspects like Druitt who we know had business there.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thats something I always thought about as well when reading profiles on the killer. Correct me if im wrong but I remember reading that the killer must have been a local or at least familiar with the area, and most likely didn't have family who could question his whereabouts at the times of the murders. It would make more sense if he wasnt a local and could somehow convince his family he was away for work related reasons, at least in my head.

It not a case of he must have been local Sid, but many think that it’s likelier that he was. He certainly could have been. Also that local knowledge might have given him an advantage in navigating the backstreets. Personally I can’t see any way of judging whether he was a local or not. We know that Kosminski was a local, Bury was in nearby Bow but visited Whitechapel and modern suspects like Lechmere and Hutchinson were certainly locals.

[sidbolt123]

It’s one of the reasons that I’ve always been wary of any assumption that he must have been a local. Someone who actually lived within that fairly small area would surely have been aware of the risk, however small maybe, of being recognised. There’s a huge difference after all of someone like Long or Lawende saying ‘I saw a man who was average build, dark hair, moustache etc,’ and the same witness saying ‘I saw a man who looked just like Fred …….. who works at the market.” Would that deter a killer? I’m unsure but it might be worth asking how many serial killers killed within such a small area whilst living in the middle somewhere? I know of geoprofiling of course but does it usually encompass such a small area? Local knowledge might have given the killer some advantage of course but that doesn’t mean that he had to have lived in Whitechapel/Spitalfields. Bury is an obvious example.

Thats something I always thought about as well when reading profiles on the killer. Correct me if im wrong but I remember reading that the killer must have been a local or at least familiar with the area, and most likely didn't have family who could question his whereabouts at the times of the murders. It would make more sense if he wasnt a local and could somehow convince his family he was away for work related reasons, at least in my head.

[Herlock Sholmes]

He was working for James Martin as a hawker of sawdust from October 1887 and then after his marriage Ellen bought him his own horse and cart. There are no records of where he was actually selling the stuff. I suspect his total hours worked selling sawdust after his marriage were 0. All he needed to do was take Ellen to the bank to cash in her shares and he had all the money he wanted. Reading the trial notes, I get the feeling Bury though rather a lot of himself and I can't see him doing something as menial as carting sawdust about when he had Ellen's money (~40K today). In Dundee, Ellen said he had a horse and cart and sold sawdust and did well from it - I suspect the money he may have showed to her as his 'earnings' was actually her money. He probably told her he was working as a cover to do whatever he wanted. Norman Hastings, the journalist who talked to Scotland Yard detectives who worked on the Bury case found out that:

'Scotland Yard was not able to establish that Bury actually worked—“if he carried on a business as a sawdust merchant the police were certainly never able to verify it” (from Bury website)

As for his going into Whitechapel, there area accounts of him assaulting Ellen there.

Hastings also found out that Bury may have had other addresses apart from his permanent one in Bow:

Scotland Yard learned that after returning to London following his August 1888 trip to Wolverhampton, Bury “had apparently constantly changed his address and although the police were able to trace several of these, there were important gaps in his history which they were never able to fill” (Bury website)

So he may have had a bolt hole, although we don't know where they were. However, from the comment below, I think they must have been within or near Whitechapel as the police considered Bury may have had the opportunity to commit the crimes:

Hastings wrote that Scotland Yard had not only been able to establish where Bury was staying on the night of the Chapman murder, but it had also “established where he had been staying on the nights of three other of the Whitechapel murders, and from the recollection of those who lived nearby, it was quite possible that he had the opportunity to commit them” (Bury webiste)

So I think Bury knew the area well from his drinking and earlier employment with Martin and had a some hideaway somewhere. I suspect what he may have done is gone back to his bolt hole after each murder, cleaned up and then headed back to Bow.

As to the problem of recognition, I think that is why the murders stopped. There are two important questions: 1) what would the ripper most likely do after Kelly; and 2) what would scare him off? After what he would have perceived as his glorious success with Kelly, surely he would try again. As for what would scare him off - a handful of people who got a really good look at him and could ID him. Although the police dismissed it, I think Farmer is the answer. The man's description fits: respectable dress, fair moustache, 5-4 to 5-6, stout, billycock hat, neck tie, about 30. If you read the papers he let her get into bed while he stayed up and then tried to cut her throat. I suspect the same method was used on Kelly given she was in bed clothes. The difference may have been that in Kelly's there was light (fire) whereas Farmer's room was described as totally black by the first person up there.

Anyway, wandered well off topic.

Cheers Wulf

[Aethelwulf]

He could have been Abby, I can’t remember to be honest. Wulf will know.

He was working for James Martin as a hawker of sawdust from October 1887 and then after his marriage Ellen bought him his own horse and cart. There are no records of where he was actually selling the stuff. I suspect his total hours worked selling sawdust after his marriage were 0. All he needed to do was take Ellen to the bank to cash in her shares and he had all the money he wanted. Reading the trial notes, I get the feeling Bury though rather a lot of himself and I can't see him doing something as menial as carting sawdust about when he had Ellen's money (~40K today). In Dundee, Ellen said he had a horse and cart and sold sawdust and did well from it - I suspect the money he may have showed to her as his 'earnings' was actually her money. He probably told her he was working as a cover to do whatever he wanted. Norman Hastings, the journalist who talked to Scotland Yard detectives who worked on the Bury case found out that:

'Scotland Yard was not able to establish that Bury actually worked—“if he carried on a business as a sawdust merchant the police were certainly never able to verify it” (from Bury website)

As for his going into Whitechapel, there area accounts of him assaulting Ellen there.

Hastings also found out that Bury may have had other addresses apart from his permanent one in Bow:

Scotland Yard learned that after returning to London following his August 1888 trip to Wolverhampton, Bury “had apparently constantly changed his address and although the police were able to trace several of these, there were important gaps in his history which they were never able to fill” (Bury website)

So he may have had a bolt hole, although we don't know where they were. However, from the comment below, I think they must have been within or near Whitechapel as the police considered Bury may have had the opportunity to commit the crimes:

Hastings wrote that Scotland Yard had not only been able to establish where Bury was staying on the night of the Chapman murder, but it had also “established where he had been staying on the nights of three other of the Whitechapel murders, and from the recollection of those who lived nearby, it was quite possible that he had the opportunity to commit them” (Bury webiste)

So I think Bury knew the area well from his drinking and earlier employment with Martin and had a some hideaway somewhere. I suspect what he may have done is gone back to his bolt hole after each murder, cleaned up and then headed back to Bow.

As to the problem of recognition, I think that is why the murders stopped. There are two important questions: 1) what would the ripper most likely do after Kelly; and 2) what would scare him off? After what he would have perceived as his glorious success with Kelly, surely he would try again. As for what would scare him off - a handful of people who got a really good look at him and could ID him. Although the police dismissed it, I think Farmer is the answer. The man's description fits: respectable dress, fair moustache, 5-4 to 5-6, stout, billycock hat, neck tie, about 30. If you read the papers he let her get into bed while he stayed up and then tried to cut her throat. I suspect the same method was used on Kelly given she was in bed clothes. The difference may have been that in Kelly's there was light (fire) whereas Farmer's room was described as totally black by the first person up there.

Anyway, wandered well off topic.

[Herlock Sholmes]

but didnt burys work as a saw dust salesman and other evidence point to he was in whitchapel area on almost a daily basis?

He could have been Abby, I can’t remember to be honest. Wulf will know.