(Adrianus) Morgenstern = Astrakhan Man

[Phil H]

Something I'd like to hear the views of others on.

I suggested this (partly tongue in cheek) on the thread about the Sheldens new e-book.

Johannes or Adrianus Morgenstern were evidently affluent men. Could one of them have been the man Hutchinson described?

I have always doubted the reality of Astrakhan Man until now. But something about the obvious ostentation of his dress, and its un-English quality - as well as the way MJK was described as reacting with him - make me wonder, could this have been her old lover/pimp Adrianus?

I dount it - but I do wonder.

Phil

[c.d.]

Hello Phil,

I believe GH's basic story (taken with a grain or two of salt). I think Mary told him to wait because she didn't know if Astrakhan Man was going to spend the night. If he were her old lover/pimp, based on past experience, I think she would know the answer to that question.

c.d.

[The Good Michael]

Old discussion on Ancestry about Morgenstern...main idea: he was Dutch and 40 years old at the time of the murders.

http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.morgenstern/33.1.1/mb.ashx

[lynn cates]

bifurcation

Hello Phil. Excellent idea for a thread. (In fact, I nearly responded to your quip.)

To answer your question, I can see no reason why not. And, yes, it would explain her interactions with A-man.

Then, one would have to decide between two scenarios.

1. Hutch was telling the truth. A-man was Morgenstern. He was the last one with Kelly. He killed Kelly.

2. Hutch was telling the truth. A-man was Morgenstern. He was NOT the last one with Kelly. Mrs. Maxwell was right. Market porter man killed Kelly.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

I'll pass, insufficient cause in my opinion.

[Stephen Thomas]

2. Hutch was telling the truth. A-man was Morgenstern. He was NOT the last one with Kelly. Mrs. Maxwell was right. Market porter man killed Kelly.

Dear oh dear.

And here was me thinking you were a smart geezer.

[Sally]

There's a photo of him on Ancestry.

Adrianus Lucas Morganstern - there it is, in black and white.

We can make our own judgements regarding how much he looks like Mr Hutchinson's description.

[Sally]

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...000&cp=11&so=2

Right there.

Is this the face of Astroman?

[Wickerman]

Oh brother, on such precarious ground another Casebook inspired Jack the Ripper suspect is born...

[Sally]

Oh brother, on such precarious ground another Casebook inspired Jack the Ripper suspect is born...

Probably Jon.

I'd have to observe though, that he doesn't look particularly dark; nor, indeed, surly. Dutch? Yes, that I could believe.

All the same, it's interesting to see the face of a man who once knew Mary Kelly - Astrakhan man or (probably) not.

[Stephen Thomas]

Is this the face of Astroman?

There's a star man waiting in the sky.

[Wickerman]

Probably Jon.

I'd have to observe though, that he doesn't look particularly dark; nor, indeed, surly. Dutch? Yes, that I could believe.

All the same, it's interesting to see the face of a man who once knew Mary Kelly - Astrakhan man or (probably) not.

Its OK Sally, I take it as a lighthearted thread....

[lynn cates]

Geezer's (over the) Hill

Hello Stephen. Thanks.

Well, you're half right--I am a geezer.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

normal life

Hello Sally, Jon.

Sally, thanks for posting that. At least, he has a moustache.

Jon, a couple of years back--when the Shelden's wrote about Morgenstern in Don's periodical, but BEFORE the current research--I tried to imagine "Morganstone" in the same was as Fleming gets imagined. Didn't work so well. He was married and had children.

Biggest obstacle--he lived until 1932 and he didn't even go to the asylum. And isn't that the big objection to Toppy being Hutch--that he seemed to live a normal life and so did not kill?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Lynn.

There is no more reason to suppose Adrianus Morgenstern was Astrachan than John McCarthy (not of Millers Court fame), who did occupy No.1 Breezers Hill, and was a pimp, in fact the 1891 census shows three single women described as 'unfortunates' (but then crossed out), at his address.

Mary Kelly must have known Maywood, McCarthy and Morgenstern, who all may have been connected to the prostitution racket. This kind of shoot-from-the-hip type theorizing is best treated with levity.