(Adrianus) Morgenstern = Astrakhan Man

[headcoate]

Oh murder ...

[lynn cates]

list

Hello Phil. Thanks. Great list. Should keep me busy for awhile.

Target dates largely between 1884-1886?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

If . . .

Hello Sally.

"Would Kelly really have gone off with a parcel-carrying (suspiciously knife-shaped parcel, at that) bloke when reports of such a bloke putting the frighteners on local women had been in the press over the preceding days?"

If she personally knew him, why not?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

dresser

Hello Phil. Just had a thought about that list and a possible addition. Animal skin dresser in the family? Hmmm, vision of knives and skinning mammals.

Cheers.
LC

[Stewart P Evans]

I'm pleased to see...

I am pleased to see that there are others like me, having a totally boring day.

[Michael W Richards]

You know of course that we already have a suspicious character near Dorset on the night of the murder that was named "Joe" and was reported to have an astrakan trimmed coat. He moved into Little Paternosters Row around the time Barnett moved out of Millers Court, and then he disappeared the night Mary was murdered...leaving some of his belongings behind. His landlady thought him weird enough to bring to the authorities attention.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

Thinking about it - here's one reason I doubt old Astroman:

Would Kelly really have gone off with a parcel-carrying (suspiciously knife-shaped parcel, at that) bloke when reports of such a bloke putting the frighteners on local women had been in the press over the preceding days?

Nah.

But Sally, Mary had nothing to fear, from a neighbour.....(Mike's post below)

You know of course that we already have a suspicious character near Dorset on the night of the murder that was named "Joe" and was reported to have an astrakan trimmed coat. He moved into Little Paternosters Row around the time Barnett moved out of Millers Court, and then he disappeared the night Mary was murdered...leaving some of his belongings behind. His landlady thought him weird enough to bring to the authorities attention.

Cheers

Funny that Isaac's was arrested in July of the year before, and charged at Dover with impersonating a detective. When arrested he was wearing an imitation gold chain, but no watch on the end of it. Much like Astrachan if I recall, no-one saw his watch either

Isaac's a harmless poser, and petty thief.

What had Mary to fear from someone like him? The parcel was likely another musical instrument he couldn't play....

[Sally]

But Sally, Mary had nothing to fear, from a neighbour.....(Mike's post below)

You're supposing that she knew Isaacs Jon. That's a leap.

I take that point that if she knew Mr Astroman, she may have trusted him - and thus not have been doubtful of his knife-shaped parcel.

It's all ifs and buts though, eh? If Astrakhan was real, If Kelly knew him, If he was Isaacs....

That's the game of this thread though, so ok...

Funny that Isaac's was arrested in July of the year before, and charged at Dover with impersonating a detective. When arrested he was wearing an imitation gold chain, but no watch on the end of it. Much like Astrachan if I recall, no-one saw his watch either

There have been other attempts to tie a named individual to Mr A, if I recall - using similarly generic details.

I'm not saying it certainly wasn't Isaacs - if Mr A even existed that is - but there seems to me to be quite little to tie them together.

Or perhaps Isaacs did wander about dressed in an Astrakhan coat with an imitation gold chain (just asking to be mugged on a dark night in Whitechapel) and Hutchinson had seen him about. Maybe he was the inspiration for his fictional Mr Astrakhan.

Just to show how easy it is to draw lines of connection.

Isaac's a harmless poser, and petty thief.

What had Mary to fear from someone like him? The parcel was likely another musical instrument he couldn't play....

Agreed - a poser and a petty thief. So how does he turn into the Ripper?

One thing I'm frequently amazed at reading the posts on the forum - and this is not directed at you particularly Jon; it's a general observation - is that these days almost anybody can be the Ripper with a healthy dose of speculation.

Petty criminals; anybody who knew Kelly, regardless of what we know about them; witnesses who are known to have lived the rest of their normal, mundane lives in stable, long-term relationships - anybody at all, it seems, so long as they have (or possibly might have had) a connection, however tenuous, to the murders in some capacity or other.

Walking down the street when a victim was killed? Lived next door to a victim three years ago? Rumoured to have worn an Astrakhan coat?

You're a suspect, mate!

Albeit that this thread is a bit of fun, I wonder - is this the era of fantasy Ripperology?

[Phil H]

and thus not have been doubtful of his knife-shaped parcel

I do have a problem, Sally, with the issue of JtR carrying his knife in a parcel.

the delay in getting at it, seems to make it impractical. I think I recall a post on here which included this invented dialogue.

JACK: Sorry [Liz/Kate etc] just wait a mo while I undo my parcel.

VICTIM: Alight. But don't be long.

JACK: I won't be - damn the string's snagged. Now its gone into a knot!... Where you gone woman?

Whatever was in any bag, parcel, doctor's case etc, I don't think it was his knife. That was ready for instant use wherever it was kept.

Phil

[lynn cates]

apron

Hello Phil.

"That was ready for instant use wherever it was kept."

Including a leather apron.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

Why a leather apron?

Jack must have had a knife - unless you reason he had long finger-nails. But an apron?

Are you getting masonic or ironic?

Phil

[lynn cates]

story

Hello Phil. Thanks.

Neither, actually.

Just recalling the story of a wandering lunatic who, dressed in apron with his knives attached, popped round to a butcher's shop with a freshly severed ox tail.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

As you do.

That's just being sociable where I live. Now, if he'd a freshly severed human head in his hand - there might have been complaints. The dripping arterial blood gets everywhere you know?

Phil

[lynn cates]

bloody . . .

Hello Phil. Thanks.

To say nothing of the venous variety.

Cheers.
LC

[Sally]

and thus not have been doubtful of his knife-shaped parcel

I do have a problem, Sally, with the issue of JtR carrying his knife in a parcel.

the delay in getting at it, seems to make it impractical. I think I recall a post on here which included this invented dialogue.

JACK: Sorry [Liz/Kate etc] just wait a mo while I undo my parcel.

VICTIM: Alight. But don't be long.

JACK: I won't be - damn the string's snagged. Now its gone into a knot!... Where you gone woman?

Whatever was in any bag, parcel, doctor's case etc, I don't think it was his knife. That was ready for instant use wherever it was kept.

Phil

I agree Phil.

Nonetheless, that seems to me to be the implication in the various stories concerning Mr Well-dressed, parcel-carrying, blood-spattered bogey-man which were circulating in the press at the very moment the unmistakably similar Mr Astrakhan popped into the public view.

'Is that a knife in your parcel, Mr Astrakhan - or are you just pleased to see me?'