(Adrianus) Morgenstern = Astrakhan Man

[Phil H]

This kind of shoot-from-the-hip type theorizing is best treated with levity.
Don't you do humour, Wickerman?

The thread was ironic, for heaven's sake. Do try to keep up.

Phil

[lynn cates]

testing

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"There is no more reason to suppose Adrianus Morgenstern was Astrachan than John McCarthy (not of Millers Court fame), who did occupy No.1 Breezers Hill, and was a pimp. . ."

Believe it or not, I agree. But a hypothesis, when formed, must be subjected to testing, thus becoming either a theory or being discarded?

". . . in fact the 1891 census shows three single women described as 'unfortunates' (but then crossed out), at his address."

And for good reason? The coppers saw "unfortunates" in many single women (yes, I know it can get lonely walking the beat--heh-heh)

"Mary Kelly must have known Maywood, McCarthy and Morgenstern, who all may have been connected to the prostitution racket."

Thanks for couching this in subjunctive mood. Heartily agree.

"This kind of shoot-from-the-hip type theorizing is best treated with levity."

Actually, it is best treated by subjecting it to rigourous testing as I noted above.

Cheers.
LC

[Sally]

If Astrakhan man existed, I doubt he was any of the above.

[Phil H]

With which I agree, Sally. (As I think you knew.)

However I propose to change my name to Morgenstern-is-Jack and post only in this thread from now on! (Believe that if you will.)

Phil

[lynn cates]

book deal

Hello Phil. Do I get an autographed copy of your book?

Cheers.
LC

[Sally]

With which I agree, Sally. (As I think you knew.)

However I propose to change my name to Morgenstern-is-Jack and post only in this thread from now on! (Believe that if you will.)

Phil

I believe everything you say Phil - er, Morganstern-is-Jack, I mean...

You are clearly sincere and not shamelessly publicising your alleged forthcoming book at all.

And I want an autographed copy as well please.

Will there be a picture of tulips on the front cover?

[Phil H]

No. It will be signed by Mary Kelly, Aaron Kosminski and Mrs Buki and come in an astrakhan wrapper.

Phil

[Wickerman]

This kind of shoot-from-the-hip type theorizing is best treated with levity.
Don't you do humour, Wickerman?

Phil, I did say I take the thread lightly, but you must admit your first post posed a serious question:

"...I have always doubted the reality of Astrakhan Man until now. But something about the obvious ostentation of his dress, and its un-English quality - as well as the way MJK was described as reacting with him - make me wonder, could this have been her old lover/pimp Adrianus?"

Especially the "...until now..." bit, but happily most responses appear to treat the proposition lightly too.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I would suggest that it is highly likely that Kelly knew A man, albeit we have to take Hutchinson's word on that meeting ever happening.
The whole scene depicts a couple familiar with each other, the laughter, the walking with arm on her shoulder, the kiss in Dorset street, not to mention considering she expressed fear the previous day of the killer to Mrs McCarthy.
Would she really consider, taking a man dressed something out of the ''Penny dreadful'', back to the seclusion of her room unless she was familiar with him.?
I cannot see that, even taking in account of her being somewhat influenced by alcohol.
So it could have been someone from her past, and her killer I believe was just that.
Regards Richard.

[Phil H]

Richard

I recognise that the leap from Adrianus (A Man) to Astrakhan man (A Man) is huge and I remain tongue in cheek about the whole thing.

BUT - one of the things thatgave me pause was Hutchinson's description of the man's clothes. It always seemed WRONG for an Englishman gentleman - wrong time of day for spats etc; too flashy altogether. It seemed contrived.

But, consider a Dutchman aping English dress and manners, a properous pimp or brothel owner, a man of affluence. Might not he dress in a somewhat improper, "flashy" way - akin to the traditional World War Two "spiv" (or Flash harry in the St Trinians films)? Ostentatious, yet a man who could feel safe wandering the East End with gold jewellery on full view. Could he have been a man known to be vicious or have tame bully-boys to settle any accounts.

In that scenario, here was Morgenstern re-visiting an old employee, almost certainly lover. Say he wanted her back, say then she refused... he goes away then sends back a thug to settle accounts with her.

Told to make an example that won't be forgotten. Told to make it look like a Ripper crime....

Just a thought.

Phil

[lynn cates]

good thought

Hello Phil. But not a bad thought, for all that.

And that would be a good explanation for the fashion faux pas.

Cheers.
LC

[Ben]

"They both then came past me and the man hid down his head with his hat over his eyes. I stooped down and looked him in the face. He looked at me Morganstern."

Anyone done that joke yet? Come on, surely that's funny?!

Seriously though, the central objection to this obviously tongue-in-cheek suggestion is the near certainty that Hutchinson's Astrakhan man was an invention designed to legitimize his own loitering presence at a crime scene while deflecting suspicion in the direction of the most obvious scapegoat around - the villainous-looking, affluent Jew. So obvious is this reality, to me at least, that any alternative tends to look rather outlandish.

But that's just my tuppence worth, so please don't challenge this particular observation here unless you want a mammoth "Did Hutchinson lie?" thread derailment. Try the 11,000 posts in the Hutchinson suspect forum instead.

Best regards,
Ben

(I also think it highly unlikely that Morganstern, or anyone for that matter, would be as unstreetwise as to dress up in such an ostentatious and opulent fashion in one of the worst slum areas in London, in the small hours, where the ripper was active and where many police officers and vigilantees sought to snare him).

[Phil H]

I also think it highly unlikely that Morganstern, or anyone for that matter, would be as unstreetwise as to dress up in such an ostentatious and opulent fashion in one of the worst slum areas in London, in the small hours, where the ripper was active and where many police officers and vigilantees sought to snare him

As I said above - and i am not trying to argue for anything - the counter to that statement would be:

Could he have been a man known to be vicious or have tame bully-boys to settle any accounts.

If he had protection he might not have been worried about where he was.

Phil

[Sally]

"They both then came past me and the man hid down his head with his hat over his eyes. I stooped down and looked him in the face. He looked at me Morganstern."

Anyone done that joke yet? Come on, surely that's funny?!

Not bad.

Seriously though, the central objection to this obviously tongue-in-cheek suggestion is the near certainty that Hutchinson's Astrakhan man was an invention designed to legitimize his own loitering presence at a crime scene while deflecting suspicion in the direction of the most obvious scapegoat around - the villainous-looking, affluent Jew. So obvious is this reality, to me at least, that any alternative tends to look rather outlandish.

Yes - I still think the most likely explanation is that Astroman was inspired by stories in the press. That doesn't mean that Hutchinson didn't have people he knew in mind when he concocted him though - assuming that to be the case.

Not Morgan - Stern though - he doesn't look a bit like Astroman to me.

More likely, if Hutchinson did know Kelly for 3 years, Mr Astrakhan's fancy dress was inspired by Mr Maywood the ostentatious conman. I can just see him with a horseshoe pin.

[Paddy Goose]

the central objection to this obviously tongue-in-cheek suggestion is the near certainty that Hutchinson's Astrakhan man was an invention designed to legitimize his own loitering presence at a crime scene while deflecting suspicion in the direction of the most obvious scapegoat around - the villainous-looking, affluent Jew. So obvious is this reality, to me ...

so please don't challenge this particular observation here unless you want a mammoth "Did Hutchinson lie?" thread derailment.

You're the one making the challenge, Ben.

This is a George Hutchinson 'suspect free' zone for discussion of who he observed. As I understand it.

Paddy