(Adrianus) Morgenstern = Astrakhan Man

[Phil H]

Why a leather apron?

Jack must have had a knife - unless you reason he had long finger-nails. But an apron?

Are you getting masonic or ironic?

Phil

[lynn cates]

apron

Hello Phil.

"That was ready for instant use wherever it was kept."

Including a leather apron.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

and thus not have been doubtful of his knife-shaped parcel

I do have a problem, Sally, with the issue of JtR carrying his knife in a parcel.

the delay in getting at it, seems to make it impractical. I think I recall a post on here which included this invented dialogue.

JACK: Sorry [Liz/Kate etc] just wait a mo while I undo my parcel.

VICTIM: Alight. But don't be long.

JACK: I won't be - damn the string's snagged. Now its gone into a knot!... Where you gone woman?

Whatever was in any bag, parcel, doctor's case etc, I don't think it was his knife. That was ready for instant use wherever it was kept.

Phil

[Sally]

But Sally, Mary had nothing to fear, from a neighbour.....(Mike's post below)

You're supposing that she knew Isaacs Jon. That's a leap.

I take that point that if she knew Mr Astroman, she may have trusted him - and thus not have been doubtful of his knife-shaped parcel.

It's all ifs and buts though, eh? If Astrakhan was real, If Kelly knew him, If he was Isaacs....

That's the game of this thread though, so ok...

Funny that Isaac's was arrested in July of the year before, and charged at Dover with impersonating a detective. When arrested he was wearing an imitation gold chain, but no watch on the end of it. Much like Astrachan if I recall, no-one saw his watch either

There have been other attempts to tie a named individual to Mr A, if I recall - using similarly generic details.

I'm not saying it certainly wasn't Isaacs - if Mr A even existed that is - but there seems to me to be quite little to tie them together.

Or perhaps Isaacs did wander about dressed in an Astrakhan coat with an imitation gold chain (just asking to be mugged on a dark night in Whitechapel) and Hutchinson had seen him about. Maybe he was the inspiration for his fictional Mr Astrakhan.

Just to show how easy it is to draw lines of connection.

Isaac's a harmless poser, and petty thief.

What had Mary to fear from someone like him? The parcel was likely another musical instrument he couldn't play....

Agreed - a poser and a petty thief. So how does he turn into the Ripper?

One thing I'm frequently amazed at reading the posts on the forum - and this is not directed at you particularly Jon; it's a general observation - is that these days almost anybody can be the Ripper with a healthy dose of speculation.

Petty criminals; anybody who knew Kelly, regardless of what we know about them; witnesses who are known to have lived the rest of their normal, mundane lives in stable, long-term relationships - anybody at all, it seems, so long as they have (or possibly might have had) a connection, however tenuous, to the murders in some capacity or other.

Walking down the street when a victim was killed? Lived next door to a victim three years ago? Rumoured to have worn an Astrakhan coat?

You're a suspect, mate!

Albeit that this thread is a bit of fun, I wonder - is this the era of fantasy Ripperology?

[Wickerman]

Thinking about it - here's one reason I doubt old Astroman:

Would Kelly really have gone off with a parcel-carrying (suspiciously knife-shaped parcel, at that) bloke when reports of such a bloke putting the frighteners on local women had been in the press over the preceding days?

Nah.

But Sally, Mary had nothing to fear, from a neighbour.....(Mike's post below)

You know of course that we already have a suspicious character near Dorset on the night of the murder that was named "Joe" and was reported to have an astrakan trimmed coat. He moved into Little Paternosters Row around the time Barnett moved out of Millers Court, and then he disappeared the night Mary was murdered...leaving some of his belongings behind. His landlady thought him weird enough to bring to the authorities attention.

Cheers

Funny that Isaac's was arrested in July of the year before, and charged at Dover with impersonating a detective. When arrested he was wearing an imitation gold chain, but no watch on the end of it. Much like Astrachan if I recall, no-one saw his watch either

Isaac's a harmless poser, and petty thief.

What had Mary to fear from someone like him? The parcel was likely another musical instrument he couldn't play....

[Michael W Richards]

You know of course that we already have a suspicious character near Dorset on the night of the murder that was named "Joe" and was reported to have an astrakan trimmed coat. He moved into Little Paternosters Row around the time Barnett moved out of Millers Court, and then he disappeared the night Mary was murdered...leaving some of his belongings behind. His landlady thought him weird enough to bring to the authorities attention.

Cheers

[Stewart P Evans]

I'm pleased to see...

I am pleased to see that there are others like me, having a totally boring day.

[lynn cates]

dresser

Hello Phil. Just had a thought about that list and a possible addition. Animal skin dresser in the family? Hmmm, vision of knives and skinning mammals.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

If . . .

Hello Sally.

"Would Kelly really have gone off with a parcel-carrying (suspiciously knife-shaped parcel, at that) bloke when reports of such a bloke putting the frighteners on local women had been in the press over the preceding days?"

If she personally knew him, why not?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

list

Hello Phil. Thanks. Great list. Should keep me busy for awhile.

Target dates largely between 1884-1886?

Cheers.
LC

[headcoate]

Oh murder ...

[Phil H]

Would Kelly really have gone off with a parcel-carrying (suspiciously knife-shaped parcel, at that) bloke when reports of such a bloke putting the frighteners on local women had been in the press over the preceding days?

She might if she knew him well - surely? An ex-lover - with whom she felt "safe"? or someone she really had no option but to go along with because they already had power over her?

Again, what if someone she knew said the package contained a "present" for her?

Phil

[Sally]

Thinking about it - here's one reason I doubt old Astroman:

Would Kelly really have gone off with a parcel-carrying (suspiciously knife-shaped parcel, at that) bloke when reports of such a bloke putting the frighteners on local women had been in the press over the preceding days?

Nah.

[Sally]

Again, Phil, you can see Mr Maywood on Ancestry. I've always thought he looks a bit blotchy....




Maywood was a conman - a fraudster. There is no indication that he was involved in prostitution, so far as I know - of course anything is possible.

Perhaps Kelly was involved in an animal rights campaign, and that was why Maywood had her 'disappeared'...

[Phil H]

Sensible posts Sally. I got carried away - don't know what came over me.

But musing for a moment.

A man might like women, but if his business interests were at stake, and he was violent/vengeful by nature, would that stop him killing one or having her killed?

What about possessiveness?

Surely those are ugly facets of character that have reared their heads in other men? I know nothing of Matwood, so can make no judgements.

Phil