(Adrianus) Morgenstern = Astrakhan Man

[lynn cates]

good thought

Hello Phil. But not a bad thought, for all that.

And that would be a good explanation for the fashion faux pas.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

Richard

I recognise that the leap from Adrianus (A Man) to Astrakhan man (A Man) is huge and I remain tongue in cheek about the whole thing.

BUT - one of the things thatgave me pause was Hutchinson's description of the man's clothes. It always seemed WRONG for an Englishman gentleman - wrong time of day for spats etc; too flashy altogether. It seemed contrived.

But, consider a Dutchman aping English dress and manners, a properous pimp or brothel owner, a man of affluence. Might not he dress in a somewhat improper, "flashy" way - akin to the traditional World War Two "spiv" (or Flash harry in the St Trinians films)? Ostentatious, yet a man who could feel safe wandering the East End with gold jewellery on full view. Could he have been a man known to be vicious or have tame bully-boys to settle any accounts.

In that scenario, here was Morgenstern re-visiting an old employee, almost certainly lover. Say he wanted her back, say then she refused... he goes away then sends back a thug to settle accounts with her.

Told to make an example that won't be forgotten. Told to make it look like a Ripper crime....

Just a thought.

Phil

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I would suggest that it is highly likely that Kelly knew A man, albeit we have to take Hutchinson's word on that meeting ever happening.
The whole scene depicts a couple familiar with each other, the laughter, the walking with arm on her shoulder, the kiss in Dorset street, not to mention considering she expressed fear the previous day of the killer to Mrs McCarthy.
Would she really consider, taking a man dressed something out of the ''Penny dreadful'', back to the seclusion of her room unless she was familiar with him.?
I cannot see that, even taking in account of her being somewhat influenced by alcohol.
So it could have been someone from her past, and her killer I believe was just that.
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

This kind of shoot-from-the-hip type theorizing is best treated with levity.
Don't you do humour, Wickerman?

Phil, I did say I take the thread lightly, but you must admit your first post posed a serious question:

"...I have always doubted the reality of Astrakhan Man until now. But something about the obvious ostentation of his dress, and its un-English quality - as well as the way MJK was described as reacting with him - make me wonder, could this have been her old lover/pimp Adrianus?"

Especially the "...until now..." bit, but happily most responses appear to treat the proposition lightly too.

[Phil H]

No. It will be signed by Mary Kelly, Aaron Kosminski and Mrs Buki and come in an astrakhan wrapper.

Phil

[Sally]

With which I agree, Sally. (As I think you knew.)

However I propose to change my name to Morgenstern-is-Jack and post only in this thread from now on! (Believe that if you will.)

Phil

I believe everything you say Phil - er, Morganstern-is-Jack, I mean...

You are clearly sincere and not shamelessly publicising your alleged forthcoming book at all.

And I want an autographed copy as well please.

Will there be a picture of tulips on the front cover?

[lynn cates]

book deal

Hello Phil. Do I get an autographed copy of your book?

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

With which I agree, Sally. (As I think you knew.)

However I propose to change my name to Morgenstern-is-Jack and post only in this thread from now on! (Believe that if you will.)

Phil

[Sally]

If Astrakhan man existed, I doubt he was any of the above.

[lynn cates]

testing

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"There is no more reason to suppose Adrianus Morgenstern was Astrachan than John McCarthy (not of Millers Court fame), who did occupy No.1 Breezers Hill, and was a pimp. . ."

Believe it or not, I agree. But a hypothesis, when formed, must be subjected to testing, thus becoming either a theory or being discarded?

". . . in fact the 1891 census shows three single women described as 'unfortunates' (but then crossed out), at his address."

And for good reason? The coppers saw "unfortunates" in many single women (yes, I know it can get lonely walking the beat--heh-heh)

"Mary Kelly must have known Maywood, McCarthy and Morgenstern, who all may have been connected to the prostitution racket."

Thanks for couching this in subjunctive mood. Heartily agree.

"This kind of shoot-from-the-hip type theorizing is best treated with levity."

Actually, it is best treated by subjecting it to rigourous testing as I noted above.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

This kind of shoot-from-the-hip type theorizing is best treated with levity.
Don't you do humour, Wickerman?

The thread was ironic, for heaven's sake. Do try to keep up.

Phil

[Wickerman]

Lynn.

There is no more reason to suppose Adrianus Morgenstern was Astrachan than John McCarthy (not of Millers Court fame), who did occupy No.1 Breezers Hill, and was a pimp, in fact the 1891 census shows three single women described as 'unfortunates' (but then crossed out), at his address.

Mary Kelly must have known Maywood, McCarthy and Morgenstern, who all may have been connected to the prostitution racket. This kind of shoot-from-the-hip type theorizing is best treated with levity.

[lynn cates]

normal life

Hello Sally, Jon.

Sally, thanks for posting that. At least, he has a moustache.

Jon, a couple of years back--when the Shelden's wrote about Morgenstern in Don's periodical, but BEFORE the current research--I tried to imagine "Morganstone" in the same was as Fleming gets imagined. Didn't work so well. He was married and had children.

Biggest obstacle--he lived until 1932 and he didn't even go to the asylum. And isn't that the big objection to Toppy being Hutch--that he seemed to live a normal life and so did not kill?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Geezer's (over the) Hill

Hello Stephen. Thanks.

Well, you're half right--I am a geezer.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Probably Jon.

I'd have to observe though, that he doesn't look particularly dark; nor, indeed, surly. Dutch? Yes, that I could believe.

All the same, it's interesting to see the face of a man who once knew Mary Kelly - Astrakhan man or (probably) not.

Its OK Sally, I take it as a lighthearted thread....