What 5 Questions Would You Like Answered?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Trevor

Yes but this is described as an actual conviction at The Thames Magistrates Court (Thames Police Court?) on 13th November 1884...I know she'd been widowed only the month before, but her husband had clearly been in ill health for a long while before, and if she'd consequently had to resort to soliciting, it's quite possible surely that she'd already had the LVP equivalent of a caution?

Just a thought

Dave

PS - but accepting a caution does actually start off a formal criminal record does it not?

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Dave. Thanks. I'll see if I can locate the original.

Cheers.
LC

I think they had different ways for dealing with prostitutes.

One such procedure is still in operation today and is the first part of the chain.

That is that when a female is arrested for soliciting she is first given a caution. This then enables the police to deal with her as a common prostitute if and when she gets arrested a second time.

A caution is not a criminal conviction

[lynn cates]

try

Hello Dave. Thanks. I'll see if I can locate the original.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

work

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"Not to mention not wanting to be in any hurry to return back to squalour and decay."

I can accept that. But meals/lodging?

"What was there to really look forward to?"

Finding work and eating, perhaps?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Minor Update

Heal Shelden quotes the 13th November 1884 case in his "Victims" book and says Liz got seven days hard labour

Cheers

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

13th November 1884

The only other references I've been able to find so far are other folk pursuing the same search. It may well be that the Court Records held at the London Metropolitan Archive, or the Indexes held at the National Archive are Paul's source...

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Ha!

A reward for The Ripper! Sorry. Could not keep to myself.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"Also, Kelly's health was poor?"

Quite.

"Making the trek to Kent and back could've been difficult."

Agreed.

"Might that explain their delay in returning?"

Well, was the journey any shorter three weeks later?

Cheers.
LC

No, but having had many bouts of ill health I know it can take it out of you. It can take plenty of time to prepare yourself for another large expendature of energy. Also, getting out of the city and filth and etc can be plenty helpful. Not to mention not wanting to be in any hurry to return to back to squalour and decay. What was there to really look forward too?

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

I'll see if I can locate the source Paul used for that. Perhaps "Lloyd's" as they had a column for such cases?

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Paul Begg

Hello again Lynn,

Paul Begg, The Definitive Story, page 211 in my copy: "On 13 November 1884, she (Stride) was sentenced for being drunk, disorderly and soliciting."

Apparently she met Kidney the year after.

Best wishes,

Gwyneth

P.S. No source given, as you say.

[lynn cates]

making a come back

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"Also, Kelly's health was poor?"

Quite.

"Making the trek to Kent and back could've been difficult."

Agreed.

"Might that explain their delay in returning?"

Well, was the journey any shorter three weeks later?

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"I wonder how long we can continue this before one of your stalkers arrives?"

(Heh-heh) Good question. But I'd rather discuss the case--even if I DO pay close attention to details.

"Perhaps that may be a check in the soliciting box? Before her murder she had been making money and Kelly how you say, holding onto it for safe keeping."

Possibly. And so I wonder if they were making money legitimately?

Cheers.
LC

Well it seems there attempt to do so hopping was a failed effort of sorts. Also, Kelly's health was poor? Making the treck to Kent and back could've been difficult. Might that explain their delay in returning?

[lynn cates]

return trip

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"Not sure on their return. Would have to review all that again."

The rest of London returned first week of September.

"But could she have been soliciting outside of London?"

OK. Any ideas where?

"Already had a go at it. Fine and interesting reading."

Agreed.

"I wonder why Kelly couldn't have killed Eddowes just the same as Kidney killed Stride? Or Barnett killed "MJK"?"

Well, was there not an easier way to have done it? Of course, Fred claimed John was in bed at the time.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Not to worry.

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

Oops, don't worry about it. I, too, read that. But no one has yet found the original source.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"What if Eddowes was an occasional solicitor and upon returning from a failed hopping excursion she was how you say sent out to get money?"

OK. When do you think she and John came back from Kent?

"Something I find funny is that everyone assumes Kidney was abusive but Kelly is a gentle creature. I wonder if it isn't maybe the other way around?"

Indeed. Have a go at Tom Wescott's Kidney essay.

Cheers.
LC

Not sure on their return. Would have to review all that again. But could she have been soliciting outside of London?

Already had a go at it. Fine and interesting reading. I wonder why Kelly couldn't have killed Eddowes just the same as Kidney killed Stride? Or Barnett killed "MJK"? I think Mr. Wood would claim it more likely than a serial killer on the loose.