GSG Conclusion

[Sunny Delight]

I'm not so sure it would have been noticeable, the rag was dirty after all, he had to carry the organs away in something, a slice of apron is perfect. Blood looks black at night and he likely would have avoided most of the streetlamps anyway.

Agreed.



Yes it may, but lets not forget roughly an hour had passed between the murder and the discovery of the apron. Which leaves the possibility that he had been 'home' already, but returned to the street to dump the piece of apron. I know some will criticize PC Long for having missed the apron at 2:20, when he first passed the spot, but if he did he would have missed it twice. He had to pass the spot at 1:55 also.
The murderer was gone from Mitre Sq. by 1:44 and it doesn't take 11 minutes to travel three streets, roughly 1500ft to Goulston St. I accept PC Long's statement, so there is an hour to be accounted for.



I think he left while Kelly was still alive. Mrs Kennedy saw Kelly outside the Britannia around 3:00am the morning of the murder, she was standing with the same man who accosted Lewis & Kennedy two nights before.
This character should be a prime suspect.

PC Long didn't seem the most observant or diligent even. As I said earlier he didn't bring his pocket book to the Inquest and then couldn't give certainty on the spelling of Jews. He also did not impress the Inquest jury in regards searching tenements. We cannot be sure the apron was there at 1:55am. Indeed it may well be that PC Long and the murderer missed each other by a minute or two. We just don't know. I don't criticise Long at all. We all make mistakes.

For me Mrs.Kennedy is likely Sarah Lewis using a pseudonym. The stories are much too similar and indeed there is no mention anywhere ever again of a Mrs.Kennedy. Of course it is possible that evidence is now lost, but one would expect the higher echelons of the Police force and Abberline in particular to take a keen interest in the woman in the presence of Mary Kelly and a strange man who accosted women locally. Surely if the woman without headgear was Kelly we would know about it and the subsequent Police efforts to track down her friend. She would for all intent and purpose hold the key to solving the whole case.

I think the Police did a fine job in piecing together Mary Kelly's final hours and they deserve real credit for that. Unfortunately for them they lacked the modern techniques(DNA, Fingerprinting etc) and technological advances of today.

In regards the Apron we don't know why he took it and it is fairly irrelevant why he did so anyways. As I say if one accepts that PC Long and PC Halse either did not see or did not regard seeing the apron as important- then the events again make perfect sense and the direction of the Rippers travel places him in the centre of Whitechapel. Unsurprising from what we know nowadays in regards these type of offenders.

[Wickerman]

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to conceive of our man as someone who knows he's been seen and then kills anyway.

I can't make it work, Miller's Court aside (possibly)...

M.

Au contraire....it's my belief the killer was seen by many people.

When Macnaghten wrote that no-one ever saw the killer..."except the PC in Mitre Sq", I think he had PC Smith in mind. If you read through Mac's recollections he does sometimes confuse Berner St. with Mitre Sq.

[Wickerman]

Hi Ike,

On checking the dates, I see that the threatening letter was dated October 6, and the Star interview with Schwartz was published five days earlier, on October 1.

The wording of the letter tends to suggest the author was referring to what Schwartz told the Star man:

'Information which may be important was given to the Leman Street police yesterday by an Hungarian concerning this murder... It seems that he had gone out for the day and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner Street, to others in Backchurch Lane.'

'6 Oct 1888
You though your-self very clever I reckon
when you informed the police But you
made a mistake if you though I dident
see you now I know you know me and
I see your little game, and I mean
to finish you and send your ears to
your wife if you show this to the police
or help them if you do I will finish
you. It no use your trying to get out
of my way Because I have you when
you don't expect it and I keep my
word as you soon see and rip you
up Yours truly
Jack the Ripper'

[vertically down left side] 'You see I know your
address.'

Assuming Schwartz was indeed the intended recipient of this nastiness, he'd have needed someone to translate it for him if he was ever shown it, as he had no English. But if that happened I could see how frightened he'd have been for himself and his wife. If the author had read the early inquest reports in The Times, he would not have found the 'Hungarian' telling his story there. Would this have reassured him, if he was indeed the killer, or made him angry that the police appeared to be protecting a vital witness from being publicly identified, provoking him into firing off that letter?

If it was a hoax, it was a particularly insightful one, but a rotten joke to play on this witness to Stride's assault.

Love,

Caz
X

Interesting, it's long been my view that Stride was in the gateway talking to parcel-man (the PC Smith suspect), Schwartz just didn't see who she was with, he only saw the BS-man accost Stride. I'm pretty sure she wasn't stood there by herself, she was with someone. BS-man, as he passed may have heard some illicit exchange and naturally, blaming the woman, called her a prostitute as he cast her down, like "we don't want your sort around here". We can't know for sure of course, but there had to be more to the incident than was reported by Schwartz, his attention was focused on the physical encounter. He just didn't notice a third person stood back in the shadows.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Jack the Ripper: You see I know your address.

Israel Schwartz: Whereas I know that you look about 30, have a fair complexion, dark hair, a small brown moustache, a full face, and broad shoulders.

Police: So if he recognized you, you should recognize him. So who was it?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Interesting, it's long been my view that Stride was in the gateway talking to parcel-man (the PC Smith suspect), Schwartz just didn't see who she was with, he only saw the BS-man accost Stride. I'm pretty sure she wasn't stood there by herself, she was with someone. BS-man, as he passed may have heard some illicit exchange and naturally, blaming the woman, called her a prostitute as he cast her down, like "we don't want your sort around here". We can't know for sure of course, but there had to be more to the incident than was reported by Schwartz, his attention was focused on the physical encounter. He just didn't notice a third person stood back in the shadows.

BS: We don't want your sort around here.

Liz: Excuse me, I'm actually with this man ... [motions toward man in shadows]

BS man shuffles off.

[Sunny Delight]

The thing about BS man though is that when you compare him to Lawende's suspect there are clear similarities. If those two descriptions were not similar then there would be a real possibility that BS man was not the killer. I think myself that the Ripper murdered Stride shortly after this initial attack or scuffle. As he was about to mutilate the body maybe the noise from the club startled him or he was spooked enough by the Schwartz incident that he thought better of it. I would say that by close to 12:50 he has made his escape.

[GBinOz]

Interesting, it's long been my view that Stride was in the gateway talking to parcel-man (the PC Smith suspect), Schwartz just didn't see who she was with, he only saw the BS-man accost Stride. I'm pretty sure she wasn't stood there by herself, she was with someone. BS-man, as he passed may have heard some illicit exchange and naturally, blaming the woman, called her a prostitute as he cast her down, like "we don't want your sort around here". We can't know for sure of course, but there had to be more to the incident than was reported by Schwartz, his attention was focused on the physical encounter. He just didn't notice a third person stood back in the shadows.

Hi Jon,

I agree. Stride is still with Parcelman who is either in the shadows or visiting the WCs a few yards away.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

The thing about BS man though is that when you compare him to Lawende's suspect there are clear similarities. If those two descriptions were not similar then there would be a real possibility that BS man was not the killer. I think myself that the Ripper murdered Stride shortly after this initial attack or scuffle. As he was about to mutilate the body maybe the noise from the club startled him or he was spooked enough by the Schwartz incident that he thought better of it. I would say that by close to 12:50 he has made his escape.

Hi Sunny,

Or perhaps Parcelman was visiting the WCs a few yards away and returned at that moment and provided the chase along Fairclough St reported by Wess in the Echo?

Cheers, George

[Iconoclast]

Hi Ike,

On checking the dates, I see that the threatening letter was dated October 6, and the Star interview with Schwartz was published five days earlier, on October 1.

The wording of the letter tends to suggest the author was referring to what Schwartz told the Star man:

'Information which may be important was given to the Leman Street police yesterday by an Hungarian concerning this murder... It seems that he had gone out for the day and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner Street, to others in Backchurch Lane.'

'6 Oct 1888
You though your-self very clever I reckon
when you informed the police But you
made a mistake if you though I dident
see you now I know you know me and
I see your little game, and I mean
to finish you and send your ears to
your wife if you show this to the police
or help them if you do I will finish
you. It no use your trying to get out
of my way Because I have you when
you don't expect it and I keep my
word as you soon see and rip you
up Yours truly
Jack the Ripper'

[vertically down left side] 'You see I know your
address.'

Assuming Schwartz was indeed the intended recipient of this nastiness, he'd have needed someone to translate it for him if he was ever shown it, as he had no English. But if that happened I could see how frightened he'd have been for himself and his wife. If the author had read the early inquest reports in The Times, he would not have found the 'Hungarian' telling his story there. Would this have reassured him, if he was indeed the killer, or made him angry that the police appeared to be protecting a vital witness from being publicly identified, provoking him into firing off that letter?

If it was a hoax, it was a particularly insightful one, but a rotten joke to play on this witness to Stride's assault.

Love,

Caz
X

This all sounds plausible, Caz. Now I've just got to remember to change that bit in my brilliant SocPill!

Ike

[Herlock Sholmes]

Interesting, it's long been my view that Stride was in the gateway talking to parcel-man (the PC Smith suspect), Schwartz just didn't see who she was with, he only saw the BS-man accost Stride. I'm pretty sure she wasn't stood there by herself, she was with someone. BS-man, as he passed may have heard some illicit exchange and naturally, blaming the woman, called her a prostitute as he cast her down, like "we don't want your sort around here". We can't know for sure of course, but there had to be more to the incident than was reported by Schwartz, his attention was focused on the physical encounter. He just didn't notice a third person stood back in the shadows.

It could explain BS man pulling her into the street and her ending up on the ground if another man was trying to pull her back into the yard?

[Aethelwulf]

It could explain BS man pulling her into the street and her ending up on the ground if another man was trying to pull her back into the yard?

Could also be BS man trying to pull her into the yard, she resists and pulls away, BS man loses his grip, she falls away from the yard, giving the appearance of BS pushing her away?

[Abby Normal]

Interesting, it's long been my view that Stride was in the gateway talking to parcel-man (the PC Smith suspect), Schwartz just didn't see who she was with, he only saw the BS-man accost Stride. I'm pretty sure she wasn't stood there by herself, she was with someone. BS-man, as he passed may have heard some illicit exchange and naturally, blaming the woman, called her a prostitute as he cast her down, like "we don't want your sort around here". We can't know for sure of course, but there had to be more to the incident than was reported by Schwartz, his attention was focused on the physical encounter. He just didn't notice a third person stood back in the shadows.

hi wick
why cant parcelman (smiths suspect) and bsman be the same?

[Sunny Delight]

Interesting, it's long been my view that Stride was in the gateway talking to parcel-man (the PC Smith suspect), Schwartz just didn't see who she was with, he only saw the BS-man accost Stride. I'm pretty sure she wasn't stood there by herself, she was with someone. BS-man, as he passed may have heard some illicit exchange and naturally, blaming the woman, called her a prostitute as he cast her down, like "we don't want your sort around here". We can't know for sure of course, but there had to be more to the incident than was reported by Schwartz, his attention was focused on the physical encounter. He just didn't notice a third person stood back in the shadows.

Highly fanciful I think. I have followed your posts for a while Wickerman and enjoyed the many thought provoking ones- this however is verging on implausible for me. BS man for me is the murderer- we don't know what he said to Stride but we do know from other murders that victims were able to react. For instance Annie Chapman falling against the fence saying 'no' and possibly Mary Kelly screaming 'murder'(may not have been her of course as well). The fact he struggles with Stride who cries out three times is a botched job in the killers eyes but the myth of a stealthy JTR is one that needs challenged.

PC Smith sees Stride at 12:35am with a man. He is never satisfactorily accounted for as far as we know. For me it may have been someone she knew to see or maybe someone she cleaned for. The respectable appearance playing into that idea. They part ways and as Schwartz enters Berner Street BS man is in front of him(I often wondered what direction BS came from- was he in front of Schwartz in the previous street also or had he entered from across the road). BS man stops with Stride to accost her. The one thing about Stride compared to the other victims is that she was sober and had her wits about her. She may have sensed something amiss with BS man. Why he tried to pull her into the street or why the struggle ensued we will never know.

The clincher for me that she was a Ripper victim however is the cut throat. That was a very rare way to murder someone even in the East End. I know a lot of people think this was not a Ripper attack. The struggle in front of witnesses in particular doesn't fit. But consider Peter Sutcliffe who attacked one of his victims whilst less than 50 yards away Taxi men stood talking and some passers by came close to the bushed he was hiding in. Killers like this can feel invincible after a time and their awareness becomes degraded.

[c.d.]

Hello Sunny Delight,

Why do you think the B.S. man went on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man (yes, yes I know). Why not get away as quickly as possible only being guilty at that point of pushing a woman?

c.d.

[Sunny Delight]

Hello Sunny Delight,

Why do you think the B.S. man went on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man (yes, yes I know). Why not get away as quickly as possible only being guilty at that point of pushing a woman?

c.d.

I think the urge was too strong. Then after he killed her something spooked him further- noise from the club perhaps. He thought better of mutilating but obviously the urge was strong enough for him to remain on the streets in the hope of a accosting someone else. The fact he had enough about him to cross City lines displays a man with cunning. Of course this is only my opinion on the case. Others may see it differently. I think Stride was dead quite soon after the initial attack and the Ripper was gone at 12:50am or shortly thereafter. Mortimer coming to her door again a minute or two after the escape and Goldstein then entering Berner Street at 12:55am. Again a lot of these times are estimates. A minute or two can make all the difference.