New information/research?

[MrBarnett]

This photo of the Fortune of War pub in Islington was taken some time between 1869 and 1882. At least that’s when Charles Ritson was the licensee. John Harrison’s yard was behind it and to the left of it. The Yard men used to drink there and obtain takeaway beer to drink while they were working.

Some of the men standing outside could have been from the yard, the two on the right look as if they might be wearing blood-smeared coats and the large man on the left could have been the bone crushing giant described by Greenwood. And who knows, the small boy could have been a Tomkins.

Wishful thinking?

[MrBarnett]

On the subject of research more generally, it goes on all the time and new things are constantly being discovered. Only today Steve Blomer informed me that researcher Jonathan Tye had discovered a reference in one of the Charles Booth notebooks to there having been one or more brothels in Winthrop Street. It seems there were a few dotted around Bucks Row in the 1880s/90s.

In November, 1888, two young prostitutes suffering from gonorrhoea were admitted to the Whitechapel infirmary from an address in Baker’s Row. It’s seems the premises was ostensibly a coffee shop.

Whether Polly Nichols had enough knowledge of the area to know of such establishments is the question. And was her kind of prostitution the sort that would be conducted indoors? Would her punters have been prepared to pay the extra cost?

[drstrange169]

Thank you.

[Debra A]

On the subject of research more generally, it goes on all the time and new things are constantly being discovered. Only today Steve Blomer informed me that researcher Jonathan Tye had discovered a reference in one of the Charles Booth notebooks to there having been one or more brothels in Winthrop Street. It seems there were a few dotted around Bucks Row in the 1880s/90s.

In November, 1888, two young prostitutes suffering from gonorrhoea were admitted to the Whitechapel infirmary from an address in Baker’s Row. It’s seems the premises was ostensibly a coffee shop.

Whether Polly Nichols had enough knowledge of the area to know of such establishments is the question. And was her kind of prostitution the sort that would be conducted indoors? Would her punters have been prepared to pay the extra cost?

I think it was quite late in the 90s that the Winthrop St brothel(s) are mentioned? I only know because it also mentioned the brothel and murder at Thomas St that seanr resurrected an old thread about the other day that I started back in 2009 about the murder in a brothel by George Henry Matthews.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/social-chat/shades-of-whitechapel/3393-george-henry-matthews-1894

I had a look at Booth for Thomas Street because of our recent discussion about St Botolph and by the time Booth wrote about Thomas St the brothel there had gone and the area gained respectability, in the space of only a couple of years apparently.

[MrBarnett]

I think it was quite late in the 90s that the Winthrop St brothel(s) are mentioned? I only know because it also mentioned the brothel and murder at Thomas St that seanr resurrected an old thread about the other day that I started back in 2009 about the murder in a brothel by George Henry Matthews.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/soc...-matthews-1894

I had a look at Booth for Thomas Street because of our recent discussion about St Botolph and by the time Booth wrote about Thomas St the brothel there had gone and the area gained respectability, in the space of only a couple of years apparently.

Yes it was, Debs. 1896, I believe, but the reference was to brothels that had been there in the past. On the southern side, so presumably between the knacker’s yard and Brady Street.

“Winthrop Street 3 & 2 storied houses, well paved; on the south side were formerly two brothels; one is still by the look of a woman standing at the doorway.”

[drstrange169]

Makes Tomkins inquest statements interesting.

[MrBarnett]

Looking at an 1886 Booth notebook, there’s no explicit mention of a brothel anywhere in Winthrop Street, so perhaps the ones referred to in 1896 weren’t there in 1888.

[MrBarnett]

Howard Brown found this some time ago. It appeared in The People on April 29th, 1888. It’s an odd little report which isn’t entirely accurate.

[MrBarnett]

Howard Brown found this some time ago. It appeared in The People on April 29th, 1888. It’s an odd little report which isn’t entirely accurate.

I think the report Howard discovered was this one from Lloyds of 22nd April, 1888. It’s slightly different.

It’s a while since I’ve given the Tomkinses much thought.

[MrBarnett]

I need to dig William Tomkins’s death cert out to check the details, but I’m pretty sure from memory that it was Wynne Baxter who certified the death - after a PM.

What the press reports don’t tell you is that WT wasn’t discovered dead, but in an alcoholic coma from which he never recovered.

Presumably there was an inquest, and presumably the finder of the body was called as a witness. Wynne Baxter took a very dim view of the poorer classes indulging in alcohol and I would imagine the son who found the body may have received a bit of a grilling from him.

Might that explain HT’s prickly performance as a witness at the Nichols inquest?

I should add that it seems rather implausible that the son just happened to be passing HB’s yard and found his father’s body outside it. William, Henry and Thomas Tomkins were all horse slaughterers. HB’s yard in Winthrop Street was almost certainly where they all worked.

[Aethelwulf]

some interesting posts there.

Does anyone know where, or have a map of, the main stables in Whitechapel? Would most pubs have had space for a few horses or were there a few main locations? Did they have night watchmen - I'm guessing so?

Also, apart from the very obvious, what did a horse slaughter do? Did they actually cut the meat up or was it just to dispatch (e.g., bolt gun)? Would someone so employed have any particular knife skills?

Thanks

[Pcdunn]

some interesting posts there.

Does anyone know where, or have a map of, the main stables in Whitechapel? Would most pubs have had space for a few horses or were there a few main locations? Did they have night watchmen - I'm guessing so?

Also, apart from the very obvious, what did a horse slaughter do? Did they actually cut the meat up or was it just to dispatch (e.g., bolt gun)? Would someone so employed have any particular knife skills?

Thanks

The Victorian Blogspot has an article on "The Knacker's Yard" at http://vichist.blogspot.com/2016/11/...20in%20comfort.

It states that worn out working horses were "killed, broken down, and squeezed for every bit of worth" from their carcasses. So, yes, I guess knife skills were involved in at least cutting up the animal.
I had put in "how were horses slaughtered in Vjctorian times?" for the search. Exactly how isn't stated, but an episode of the rebooted "All Creatures Great and Small" depicted a vet with a short gun that is placed against the head of the animal. That is in the 1930s , of course. In Victorian times they may have used a mallet or cut a horse's throat.

[MrBarnett]

The Victorian Blogspot has an article on "The Knacker's Yard" at http://vichist.blogspot.com/2016/11/...20in%20comfort.

It states that worn out working horses were "killed, broken down, and squeezed for every bit of worth" from their carcasses. So, yes, I guess knife skills were involved in at least cutting up the animal.
I had put in "how were horses slaughtered in Vjctorian times?" for the search. Exactly how isn't stated, but an episode of the rebooted "All Creatures Great and Small" depicted a vet with a short gun that is placed against the head of the animal. That is in the 1930s , of course. In Victorian times they may have used a mallet or cut a horse's throat.

The humane cattle killer (gun) came into use in the late 19th century. Before that a poleaxe was used.

You’ll find more about the knacker industry on this thread.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/victoriana/the-east-end-of-london/6270-harrison-barber-horse-slaughterers

The image is of an early version of a ‘humane cattle killer’.

[MrBarnett]

The humane cattle killer (gun) came into use in the late 19th century. Before that a poleaxe was used.

You’ll find more about the knacker industry on this thread.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/victoriana/the-east-end-of-london/6270-harrison-barber-horse-slaughterers

The image is of an early version of a ‘humane cattle killer’.

Although it’s rather disorganised, I’d like to think there’s more about the history of the knacker trade on this thread than anywhere else online. If anyone can find a better resource, please let me know.

[MrBarnett]

some interesting posts there.

Does anyone know where, or have a map of, the main stables in Whitechapel? Would most pubs have had space for a few horses or were there a few main locations? Did they have night watchmen - I'm guessing so?

Also, apart from the very obvious, what did a horse slaughter do? Did they actually cut the meat up or was it just to dispatch (e.g., bolt gun)? Would someone so employed have any particular knife skills?

Thanks

There were stables dotted about everywhere.

Knackers killed horses (and other animals), bled them, gutted them, flayed them (removed the hides), butchered them (removed the flesh and fat from the bones) and boiled the flesh to produce catsmeat. Every inch of the animal had some value - the blood, the bones, the hair, the flesh, the fat, the entrails, the hides etc.

I use the term ‘knackers’ to distinguish them from butchers who produced food for human consumption. There was a strict legal distinction between the two.