Whistling on Berner Street

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I keep seeing posted references to "Gilleman" but all I can find is

1. the entry in the Complete A-Z :
Gilleman: Supposed member of the IWC who according to Morris Eagle came into the clubroom at around 1am and said "There is a dead woman lying in the yard". Analysis of the sources shows that Eagle was talking about Louis Diemshutz.

2. Ripperologist No 11
Contents:

Page Thirteen:

The Mystery of Gilleman - Solved?

Paul Begg

Can someone please enlighten me as to why Gilleman is so mysterious and as to what importance he has on the Stride case???

Cheers, George

Inquest, Daily News, Oct 2:

Eagle: I had been there about 20 minutes when the man I mentioned-Gigelmann-came and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard."

Diemschitz: My wife was with several of the members of the club. I told them "There is a woman lying in the yard, but I cannot say whether she is drunk or dead." I then got a candle and went down. By that light I could see there was blood even before I reached the body.

If Gigelmann = Diemschitz, then surely "the man I mentioned" would have been identified as the steward.

How did Gigelmann know there was a dead woman in the yard, when Diemschitz states that he did not know if the woman was drunk or dead? Diemschitz told at least one reporter that he thought the woman might have been his wife, and went inside to look for her. Yet according to Eagle, the man Gigelmann seems to have stated positively that the woman was dead, and so this man must have already seen her by match or candlelight. The question is; when? Before answering, consider how Eagle continues:

I went down in a second, struck a match, and saw a woman lying on the ground near the gates with a lot of blood near her. Her feet were six or seven feet from the gate, and her head lay towards the yard. When I reached the body and struck the match there was only one of the members present. I thought at first she was drunk, and told her to get up-that was before I struck the match.

Only one of the members present? Was that Diemschitz?

Arbeter Fraint: Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: “Get up!”

Apparently not. So when was this scene occurring? Was it before or after this ...?

Mrs. Diemschitz: Just by the door I saw a pool of blood, and when my husband struck a light I noticed a dark lump lying under the wall. I at once recognised it as the body of a woman, while, to add to my horror, I saw a stream of blood trickling down the yard, and terminating in the pool I had first noticed. She was lying on her back with her head against the wall, and the face looked ghastly. I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard.

How could it have been after, if on hearing Sarah's screams, the members "rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard"? So it must been before. That is, before Diemschitz had even arrived home.

[GBinOz]

Inquest, Daily News, Oct 2:

Eagle: As soon as I entered the gateway on the night in question I heard a friend of mine singing-perhaps the window was partly open, but I am not sure. He was singing in the Russian language. I went up and we sang together. I had been there about 20 minutes when the man I mentioned-Gigelmann-came and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard."

Diemschitz: My wife was with several of the members of the club. I told them "There is a woman lying in the yard, but I cannot say whether she is drunk or dead." I then got a candle and went down. By that light I could see there was blood even before I reached the body.

If Gigelmann = Diemschitz, then surely "the man I mentioned" would have been identified as the steward. He appears to have been his Russian singing buddy.

How did Gigelmann know there was a dead woman in the yard, when Diemschitz states that he did not know if the woman was drunk or dead? Diemschitz told at least one reporter that he thought the woman might have been his wife, and went inside to look for her. Yet according to Eagle, the man Gigelmann seems to have stated positively that the woman was dead, and so this man must have already seen her by match or candlelight. The question is; when? Before answering, consider how Eagle continues:

I went down in a second, struck a match, and saw a woman lying on the ground near the gates with a lot of blood near her. Her feet were six or seven feet from the gate, and her head lay towards the yard. When I reached the body and struck the match there was only one of the members present. I thought at first she was drunk, and told her to get up-that was before I struck the match.

Only one of the members present? Was that Diemschitz? Kozebrodsky (Gilyarovsky) - Another member, named Isaac, was with me at the time.

Arbeter Fraint: Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: “Get up!”

Apparently not. So when was this scene occurring? Was it before or after this ...?

Mrs. Diemschitz: Just by the door I saw a pool of blood, and when my husband struck a light I noticed a dark lump lying under the wall. I at once recognised it as the body of a woman, while, to add to my horror, I saw a stream of blood trickling down the yard, and terminating in the pool I had first noticed. She was lying on her back with her head against the wall, and the face looked ghastly. I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard.

How could it have been after, if on hearing Sarah's screams, the members "rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard"? So it must been before. That is, before Diemschitz had even arrived home. Can't have been before as she mentions him striking a light before she screamed.

Andrew,

You are reading sinister clues into something that may be a simple as fallacies of memory. When Diemshitz initially mentioned finding his wife inside Eagle was upstairs, but Gilleman may have come downstairs to indulge in the tea and biscuits that Mrs D was serving. He hears Louis, goes upstairs and relays only part of the message to his singing buddy. Eagle comes downstairs just as Koze is headed out the door with Louis. Mrs D follows after and screams. This is all just pure conjecture as to how it may have gone down, so I won't be justifying the speculation.

Unless there is another reference, it appears that Gilleman made no mention of time, and Eagle - "About one o'clock was the time that I first saw the body. I did not notice the time, but I have calculated it from the time I left home to return to the club." and "I should say it was about 1 o'clock, although I did not look at the clock." was just guessing.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

How did Gigelmann know there was a dead woman in the yard, when Diemschitz states that he did not know if the woman was drunk or dead? Diemschitz told at least one reporter that he thought the woman might have been his wife, and went inside to look for her. Yet according to Eagle, the man Gigelmann seems to have stated positively that the woman was dead, and so this man must have already seen her by match or candlelight.

Its a case of ‘filling in the gaps.’ So he’s either forgotten that Diemschitz had said dead or drunk and just remembered the ‘dead’ part or he’s just left out the ‘drunk’ part because he now knows that she was actually dead and that the suggestion that she might have been drunk was unimportant.

[FrankO]

I know well about the Arbeter Fraint Frank, (https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...arbeter-fraynd), and I know the issue that was released after the Stride murder stated Louis arrived at around 15 minutes to 1.

That Arbeter Fraint issue reads: "At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market."

Issac K meets them on the way back, what time must he have left?

Isaac Kozebrodski stated: "I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers.", which was corroborated by Lamb: "I was in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running to me shouting something. I went towards them. They said, "Come on, there has been another murder."

As long as you continue to ignore these facts, Michael, it's no use discussing things with you, Michael - so, I'll pass.

Cheers,
Frank

[Michael W Richards]

That Arbeter Fraint issue reads: "At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market."


Isaac Kozebrodski stated: "I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers.", which was corroborated by Lamb: "I was in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running to me shouting something. I went towards them. They said, "Come on, there has been another murder."

As long as you continue to ignore these facts, Michael, it's no use discussing things with you, Michael - so, I'll pass.

Cheers,
Frank

As I said about the translated version of the Arbeter Fraint provided by Lynn Cates and the first one to discuss the events of that night, it clearly begins at "approx quarter to 1". Repeating your own post that doesnt say that only proves one thing...and thats not that I was incorrect.

And Issac Kozebrodsky said this since you cant even copy and paste what he said evidently..."About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."

Apparently you also believe that posting sections of quotes selectively is a good way to contradict someone. If you want to post what Issac said to contradict me, perhaps you should have included the beginning of the post...About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard..which is what Ive been posting.

[FrankO]

As I said about the translated version of the Arbeter Fraint provided by Lynn Cates and the first one to discuss the events of that night, it clearly begins at "approx quarter to 1". Repeating your own post that doesnt say that only proves one thing...and thats not that I was incorrect.

Below you'll find what the Arbeter Fraint wrote before “At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market.”:

“Not long ago, the blood of the slaughtered women dried up from the Whitechapel streets, and once again the cold stones of this neighborhood were warmed by the fresh blood of two other women sacrificed by the hand of an unnatural person. These two unfortunate women were cut up in the same way as the first four.
What interests us most about the latest double murder is that the first of them occurred near the door of our club and that many of us saw the still half-warm body of the unfortunate woman. Here we will give an account of everything that we know about the double murder and mainly about the first one, which was the closest one to us.
The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one. That evening there was a discussion in the club: “Should a Jew be a Socialist?” The hall was packed and the discussion was very lively. The debate went on until approximately eleven o’clock. At about 12 o’clock all the non-members scattered, and about twenty of the members remained in the club. These same [members] created a choir and sang various songs, for the most part, Russian.”

So, it says that the Stride murder occurred at about a quarter to one and that Diemshutz arrived at about one o’clock, while you claimed the AF stated that “Louis arrived at around 15 minutes to 1.” Unless you’re referring to another issue of the AF, I can’t see how you could be correct, Michael. So, please post what you’re looking at, if you do have another issue.

And Issac Kozebrodsky said this since you cant even copy and paste what he said evidently..."About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one.

Since this bit isn’t important for the point I’m making, I didn’t need to copy & past it. The point is that you keep claiming – even though it’s a minor point – that Kozebrodski meets Eagle & Lamb on the way back to Dutfield’s Yard, and I presented evidence that disproves you claim. Kozebrodski himself said he went into Commercial Road along with Eagle and Lamb said that, while he was in Commercial Road, not one but two men came running to him. Which is in perfect agreement with what Kozebrodski said: that he went into Commercial Road together with Eagle and that, there, they found Lamb and PC 426 H. Reading this evidence, I really can’t see how Kozebrodski met Eagle & Lamb on the way back.

Apparently you also believe that posting sections of quotes selectively is a good way to contradict someone.

It depends on what someone states and what I want to react to, but in this case, yes, I only posted the parts that I needed. Why should I post more than I need?

If you want to post what Issac said to contradict me, perhaps you should have included the beginning of the post...About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard..which is what Ive been posting.

No, I really shouldn’t, Michael, simply because Kozebrodski’s timing has no bearing on the point I’m making.

[Herlock Sholmes]

yeah, the facts. Yours are just laughable if you werent such a rude ******* too.

From the man who has just called me a cretin and a jerk. I have told you that I have no interest in discussing the case with you. It’s a waste of time.

[Admin]

It's Sunday. I was enjoying it. Now I'm not. This thread is closed til I can deal appropriately with it and everyone who participated in the brawl. Enjoy the rest of the weekend folks. Maybe take a walk. Breathe some fresh air.