Whistling on Berner Street

[GBinOz]

George,
if Herschburg was in the club at the time, then we have two big questions.
1. Why did he speak as an outsider, when interviewed by the press?
2. Why does he seem to know all sorts of stuff about the club, the work that goes on in the yard, who didn't discover the body, and who did discover the body, except for that man's name? Could he really know all the stuff he rattles off, but not Diemschitz' name, if he were a member of the club and inside it when the body was discovered?
I don't know the answers to your questions, but he was on a list of club members who were in the premises at the time.
No one who was definitely at the club at the time, mentions hearing a whistle. Is it not much more likely that if the whistle was blown by someone associated with the vigilance committee, it would have been a patrolman on the street?
More likely someone who was in the club viewing the body - Koze or Jacobs.
If that person had not been right at her door, then was it Koster rousing the neighbors? How early was Koster on the scene? Apparently it was early enough to claim the discovery as his own. Presumably he missed seeing a whopping great costermonger barrow, parked right next to the victim.
I wasn't referring to Koster. Just to the possiblity that it may have been the killer referring to a specific knife.
The reference to the 10" blade - same length as the Coram knife - is fascinating. If the murder knife had been left behind, perhaps deliberately, then what happens when someone on the street is first alerted to the crime, and finds a knife on the ground and someone from the club near the body? It would be something like Paul coming across Cross, and noticing a knife next to Nichols.
Except that the Coram knife was found the next night in Whitechapel Road outside the premises where Cohen was arrested.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I agree with your rationale as to how the three reports appeared in the same publication.There can be no doubt that report#2 identifies Mortimer by address location, and #3 by name and address. But while report#1 identifies the location as outside Mortimer's home, it does not identify Mortimer as the subject of the interview, but excludes her as she was the wife of a Carman, not a well to do Artisan. It seems me that there were at least three, or four if Marshall is to be counted, door step snoopers in the vicinty that night. What do you think?

Cheers, George

Hi George.

I do agree the report indicates there were a group of neighbors at or outside that address, yet if you take Mortimer's story step by step and compare it with that of 'Mrs Artisdan' (the first account), they are almost identical.

Both Mrs Artisan & Mortimer were "just about to go to bed".
Both responded to a commotion outside.
Both had been "at the door", and came in, when they heard an alarm.
Both mention Diemschitz as the first witness in the event.
Both ran to see, and to describe the body.
Both mention seeing "the man with the black bag", pass up the street.

All this against the husband being a "Costermonger" or an "Artisan"?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

Herschburg was upstairs in the club at the time. IMO the whistle he heard was blown by Koze or Jacobs. I think most people would include the whistle as a call for the police.

The person who called out 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' was not necessarily right outside her door and I think it is doubtful they knew she had very soon before been at her doorstep. There has been speculation that this may have actually been a teaser by the killer as the Coram knife had a 10 inch blade.

Cheers, George

George,
if Herschburg was in the club at the time, then we have two big questions.
1. Why did he speak as an outsider, when interviewed by the press?
2. Why does he seem to know all sorts of stuff about the club, the work that goes on in the yard, who didn't discover the body, and who did discover the body, except for that man's name? Could he really know all the stuff he rattles off, but not Diemschitz' name, if he were a member of the club and inside it when the body was discovered?

No one who was definitely at the club at the time, mentions hearing a whistle. Is it not much more likely that if the whistle was blown by someone associated with the vigilance committee, it would have been a patrolman on the street?

If that person had not been right at her door, then was it Koster rousing the neighbors? How early was Koster on the scene? Apparently it was early enough to claim the discovery as his own. Presumably he missed seeing a whopping great costermonger barrow, parked right next to the victim.

The reference to the 10" blade - same length as the Coram knife - is fascinating. If the murder knife had been left behind, perhaps deliberately, then what happens when someone on the street is first alerted to the crime, and finds a knife on the ground and someone from the club near the body? It would be something like Paul coming across Cross, and noticing a knife next to Nichols.

[GBinOz]

This woman made two references to the hearing the police.

I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.'

I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body.

Why did someone go to the closed door, and call out about the murder? Did they know the woman had very soon before been at her doorstep? How?

If the woman was not Fanny, then it must have been someone who lived north of #36. She heard the call for police. Abraham Herschburg lived at #28, but he heard a police whistle. Why was he alerted by that sound, and not the calls for police? Makes you wonder which came first.

Hi Andrew,

Herschburg was upstairs in the club at the time. IMO the whistle he heard was blown by Koze or Jacobs. I think most people would include the whistle as a call for the police.

The person who called out 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' was not necessarily right outside her door and I think it is doubtful they knew she had very soon before been at her doorstep. There has been speculation that this may have actually been a teaser by the killer as the Coram knife had a 10 inch blade.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

Are you sure the reporter wasn't only commenting on her appearance, rather than what he had been told about her? Why would the husbands occupation be volunteered or asked about?
I don't know, but there it is.

I think the key word is 'apparently'.

Isn't this just Fanny wearing her Sunday best?
I don't think so.

Fanny will not be impressed.

According to the thread on Letchford's sister, the occupations of the husbands of the sisters were; porter, carman, boot maker.
OK, so we have three door step snoops, Mrs Artisan, Mortimer and Letchford's sister. Interesting that the reporter saw her talking with one or two neighbours. A door step snoop conference?

The Star: The police have been told that a man, aged between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the woman murdered in Berner-street to the ground. Those who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and no notice was taken of it.

A breakthrough! Someone(s) we know of, witnessed the Schwartz incident! Although how did they know it was the murdered woman, who was thrown to the ground?

Since the Mrs Artisan's Wife account gives no times we can't know if her sighting of Goldstein was before or after Mortimer's sighting.

Cheers, George

This woman made two references to the hearing the police.

I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.'

I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body.

Why did someone go to the closed door, and call out about the murder? Did they know the woman had very soon before been at her doorstep? How?

If the woman was not Fanny, then it must have been someone who lived north of #36. She heard the call for police. Abraham Herschburg lived at #28, but he heard a police whistle. Why was he alerted by that sound, and not the calls for police? Makes you wonder which came first.

[GBinOz]

Ok, lets have a look at the Evening News of Oct. 1st.

Here the first report begins with this paragraph.
"Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot."

I think we can all agree that "three doors from the gateway" is No.36, the home of Mrs Mortimer. Three doors south would be the beer house on the corner at Fairclough St., though she is not identified by name.

The above exchange reads to me like the reporter was a journalist from the Evening News, very informal, almost conversational in presentation.

The next report is buried within a long account where Mortimer's observations are given in the third-person. "Two doors from the club", is the same as "three doors from the gateway".
"A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so".....etc.

In my view this may be a copied story, and as I do a search I find this same account has been copied from the Daily News of the same date.


Further down we have a third account where the witness is identified by name.
"Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual"....etc.

The above is part of an agency account. The evening press often copied stories from the morning papers. For an original take a look at the Daily News of the same date, you can read several paragraphs which are verbatim, yet proceeding backwards up the page you will see that the beginning paragraphs concerning Diemschitz have been reworded.
It looks like the editor at the Evening News copied the story and attempted to reword the whole thing to make it look like their own, but gave up half way through and just published the rest of it verbatim.

How do we know this last account was from an agency? - because we read the exact same paragraph for Mortimer in another morning paper, The Morning Advertiser. Morning papers go to press overnight so for two or more morning papers to carry the exact same report means they obtained the report from a third-party - an agency.
And, just for good measure you will see the Times carried the same accounts, just edited down and reworded.

Always remember, weekend papers often copied their stories from the Dailies of the previous week. Evening papers often copied from the morning press of the same day. Whenever you have cause to question if you are dealing with an original story in an evening paper, do a search in the morning press for the exact same wording.
Some morning papers even leave the credit in the story. By this I mean, "...The Central News reports.....etc...etc." or Press Association, or whomever. More often than not these credits are edited out, but sometimes they leave them in confirming it's an agencies story.

Hi Jon,

I agree with your rationale as to how the three reports appeared in the same publication.There can be no doubt that report#2 identifies Mortimer by address location, and #3 by name and address. But while report#1 identifies the location as outside Mortimer's home, it does not identify Mortimer as the subject of the interview, but excludes her as she was the wife of a Carman, not a well to do Artisan. It seems me that there were at least three, or four if Marshall is to be counted, door step snoopers in the vicinty that night. What do you think?

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi George. Thanks.

Are you sure the reporter wasn't only commenting on her appearance, rather than what he had been told about her? Why would the husbands occupation be volunteered or asked about?

Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her.

Isn't this just Fanny wearing her Sunday best?

Regarding Goldstein heading north versus south, to me this comes back to the question of what was meant about the man Mortimer had seen pass through the street previously. Let's assume she did go to her door on Smith's passing, and this was at 12:45 Mortimer Time. She also goes to the yard just after 1am MT. Why did she not then say...?

I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between a quarter to one and one o'clock this morning, and did not notice anything unusual.

Why can't she have also gone to her door at 12:30 MT? If she had briefly come in at 12:40 MT, she could have seen Goldstein walk south in that (previous) period. The 5 minute or so gap would then justify her claim to have been at her doorstep nearly all of that half hour. At 12:45 MT, she goes to the door with the intention of shooting the bolts. It's obvious to me why the bolts weren't already shot. It's also obvious that the 10 minutes only theory, leaves too much unexplained.

According to the thread on Letchford's sister, the occupations of the husbands of the sisters were; porter, carman, boot maker.

Hi Andrew,

Are you sure the reporter wasn't only commenting on her appearance, rather than what he had been told about her? Why would the husbands occupation be volunteered or asked about?
I don't know, but there it is.


Isn't this just Fanny wearing her Sunday best?
I don't think so.

According to the thread on Letchford's sister, the occupations of the husbands of the sisters were; porter, carman, boot maker.
OK, so we have three door step snoops, Mrs Artisan, Mortimer and Letchford's sister. Interesting that the reporter saw her talking with one or two neighbours. A door step snoop conference?

Since the Mrs Artisan's Wife account gives no times we can't know if her sighting of Goldstein was before or after Mortimer's sighting.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

How does this explain why one of the three reports does not name or quote the person who made the statement?

The second paragraph (see #188), sounds very much like the thoughts of a detective. Someone is trying to work out what happened, and not just provide a report. I think the speculation is owing to the person who took the statement, and not the journalist responsible for the report.

Ok, lets have a look at the Evening News of Oct. 1st.

Here the first report begins with this paragraph.
"Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot."

I think we can all agree that "three doors from the gateway" is No.36, the home of Mrs Mortimer. Three doors south would be the beer house on the corner at Fairclough St., though she is not identified by name.

The above exchange reads to me like the reporter was a journalist from the Evening News, very informal, almost conversational in presentation.

The next report is buried within a long account where Mortimer's observations are given in the third-person. "Two doors from the club", is the same as "three doors from the gateway".
"A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so".....etc.

In my view this may be a copied story, and as I do a search I find this same account has been copied from the Daily News of the same date.


Further down we have a third account where the witness is identified by name.
"Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual"....etc.

The above is part of an agency account. The evening press often copied stories from the morning papers. For an original take a look at the Daily News of the same date, you can read several paragraphs which are verbatim, yet proceeding backwards up the page you will see that the beginning paragraphs concerning Diemschitz have been reworded.
It looks like the editor at the Evening News copied the story and attempted to reword the whole thing to make it look like their own, but gave up half way through and just published the rest of it verbatim.

How do we know this last account was from an agency? - because we read the exact same paragraph for Mortimer in another morning paper, The Morning Advertiser. Morning papers go to press overnight so for two or more morning papers to carry the exact same report means they obtained the report from a third-party - an agency.
And, just for good measure you will see the Times carried the same accounts, just edited down and reworded.

Always remember, weekend papers often copied their stories from the Dailies of the previous week. Evening papers often copied from the morning press of the same day. Whenever you have cause to question if you are dealing with an original story in an evening paper, do a search in the morning press for the exact same wording.
Some morning papers even leave the credit in the story. By this I mean, "...The Central News reports.....etc...etc." or Press Association, or whomever. More often than not these credits are edited out, but sometimes they leave them in confirming it's an agencies story.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I can't be sure if it was in Fishman's, The East End 1888, or Curtis's, Jack the Ripper and the London Press, but I read that on occasion in the Newspaper editing process a brief report might be set in the type-press. These were assembled letter by letter, therefore if a later report came in just prior to publication time it would be added in the later pages, rather than try remove the earlier account by unpicking hundreds of letters already set in columns and then shifting every other story in the press to close the gap.

Setting the type-press was a labor intensive process, they didn't always have to time to rework everything for the sake of one report.
In this case if we have three differing reports it likely means three different sources.

On a hot topic like the Whitechapel Murders a Newspaper might have their own journalist on the street interviewing witnesses, but also they might buy alternate accounts from an agency over the telegraph like the Central News or the Press Association. So in an extreme case we might read three differing accounts of a witness interview. Each account is original, yet different

How does this explain why one of the three reports does not name or quote the person who made the statement?

The second paragraph (see #188), sounds very much like the thoughts of a detective. Someone is trying to work out what happened, and not just provide a report. I think the speculation is owing to the person who took the statement, and not the journalist responsible for the report.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

I have to say that I award you full marks for your research.

Hi George. Thanks.

"Why did the EN deem it appropriate to publish three reports on Mortimer, in a single edition? The other two reports quote Mortimer, so why couldn't they quote her a third time?"

As we have discussed before, I don't think the third interview, published first in the EN publication, was with Mortimer. The reporter says that he interviewed a well dressed woman, talking to neighbours, who was the wife of a well to do artisan. Mortimer's husband was a Carman. The woman also reports seeing Goldstein heading north on Berner St towards Commercial Road, where as Mortimer has him headed south and turning into Fairclough. I wondered if Mortimer may have been Letchford's sister but her wedding certificate showed her a spinster with a different maiden name. Perhaps the artisan's wife was Letchford's sister?

Cheers, George

Are you sure the reporter wasn't only commenting on her appearance, rather than what he had been told about her? Why would the husbands occupation be volunteered or asked about?

Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her.

Isn't this just Fanny wearing her Sunday best?

Regarding Goldstein heading north versus south, to me this comes back to the question of what was meant about the man Mortimer had seen pass through the street previously. Let's assume she did go to her door on Smith's passing, and this was at 12:45 Mortimer Time. She also goes to the yard just after 1am MT. Why did she not then say...?

I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between a quarter to one and one o'clock this morning, and did not notice anything unusual.

Why can't she have also gone to her door at 12:30 MT? If she had briefly come in at 12:40 MT, she could have seen Goldstein walk south in that (previous) period. The 5 minute or so gap would then justify her claim to have been at her doorstep nearly all of that half hour. At 12:45 MT, she goes to the door with the intention of shooting the bolts. It's obvious to me why the bolts weren't already shot. It's also obvious that the 10 minutes only theory, leaves too much unexplained.

According to the thread on Letchford's sister, the occupations of the husbands of the sisters were; porter, carman, boot maker.

[JeffHamm]

Hi George,

Hi Jeff,

I posted my timeline some time ago on the "if Schwartz lied" thread before you published your table of estimate times. I have made a couple of small changes since then so I'll post it again here, again with my proviso that, while times are shown to a minute, they are still approximate. Times are Police times.

Before 12:34 - Wess & company leave, Letchford arrives, Lave goes outside (and returns 5 to 10 minutes later), Eagle returns to the club, Stride & companion arrive opposite the club
12:34 - Smith sees Parcelman and Stride and is heard passing by FM.
12:35 - Parcelman and Stride cross into the yard just before FM arrives at her door. FM’s clock is running 10 minutes fast and shows 12:45. Couple arrives at the corner of the board school
12:45 - PM leaves door after locking up. Brown passes and sees the couple. Couple depart. Schwartz turns into Berner St.
12:47 - BSM and Schwartz arrive at the yard and BSM pulls Stride from the yard into the street. Schwartz crosses the road and proceeds to Fairclough St. Pipeman emerges, frightens Schwartz, BSM calls out Lipski. Pipeman and Schwartz depart to the south.
12:48 - 12:53 - Someone kills Stride
12:52 Letchford’s sister leaves doorstep.
12:52 - Diemshitz turns into Berner St. Club clock is running 10 minutes slow and reads 12:42.
12:53 - PM hears the cart pass. Diemshitz pulls into yard and horse shies.
12:53 to 12:55 - Diemshitz prods Stride with whip, climbs down from cart, lights match and sees shape of woman, goes into club searching for his wife, locates candle and returns to discover the body, alerts those in the club who emerge and light matches to observe the body.
12:55 - Club members depart the yard looking for police along Fairclough.
12:57 Diemshitz returns with Spooner. Koze and Eagle depart for Commercial Road.
12:59 - Lamb is alerted in Commercial Road and proceeds to the yard. Ayliffe follows shortly after.
1:00 – Lamb is standing over body.
1:01 - Lamb sends Constable for doctor and sends Eagle to Leman St PS.
1:02 - Smith arrives at the Berner St/Commercial Road corner and proceeds to yard.
1:03 - Johnson is alerted, goes to alert Blackwell, whose pocket watch is running fast and reads 1:10
1:06 - Johnson arrives at yard and is mistaken for Blackwell by Lamb and Diemshitz. Smith leaves to fetch ambulance.
1:07 – Johnston opens Stride’s collar and begins to examine body. Lamb closes gates.
1:09 - Blackwell arrives at yard, finds gates closed. Pocket watch is running fast and shows 1:16. Finds Stride’s collar is open. Blackwell estimates Stride has been dead 20 minutes to half hour:- i.e. about 12:40 to 12:50.

Cheers, George

Ah, so I wasn't going mad! I thought you had, but I couldn't recall what thread it was in and must have missed it when scanning through various attempts. Anyway, looking at the two, we're pretty much in agreement, with roughly 6-7 minutes of sync difference between PC Smith's clock and Blackwell, so if one adds 6 or 7 minutes to each of your times it's very similar to what I've come to, and if one subtracts 6-7 minutes from my times, we get something very similar to yours. Nice.

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

I have a theory about the 'important statement' report, which presumably refers to Fanny Mortimer.

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

Presuming that the body did not lie in the yard when the policeman passed-and it could hardly, it is thought, have escaped his notice-and presuming also that the assassin and his victim did not enter the yard while the woman stood at the door, it follows that they must have entered it within a minute or two before the arrival of the pony trap. If this be a correct surmise, it is easy to understand that the criminal may have been interrupted at his work. Diemschitz says he thinks it quite possible that after he had entered the yard the assassin may have fled out of it, having lurked in the gloom until a favourable moment arrived.

I've always thought it strange that for a supposedly important statement, the statement maker is neither named nor quoted. This report appeared in a few papers, including the Evening News of Oct 1. Why did the EN deem it appropriate to publish three reports on Mortimer, in a single edition? The other two reports quote Mortimer, so why couldn't they quote her a third time? I've speculated that the reason for this anomaly is that the source of the statement referred to, is actually the police. That might explain why no quotes or names were given - the police did not provide those details, but merely gave a summary of the statement. The problem with that theory is; why would the police provide summary details of a witness statement, to the press? What's in it for them? Furthermore, we are told that the woman lived two doors from the club - so it seems fairly obvious who is being referred to. Thus the report provides no real anonymity for Fanny.

So who else might have taken the statement the report refers to? Consider this section from the EN's Oct 4 report on Matthew Packer...

We proceed to five hereunder the story of the two detectives, Messrs. Grand and J.H. Batchelor, of 283 Strand: When they began their quest, almost from the first place at which they sought evidence from No. 44 Berner street, the second house from the spot at which the body was found. This is the residence of a man named Mathew Packer, who carries on a small business as a greengrocer and fruiterer. His shop is an insignificant place, with a half window in front, and most of his dealings are carried on through the lower part of the window case, in which his fruit is exposed for sale. Mathew Packer had valuable information to give, and after two or three interviews on the subject, made and signed a statement in writing, the substance of which is as follows:

So supposedly Packer signed a statement taken by Grand and Batchelor. Could the same have been true of Fanny Mortimer? If that seems a little far-fetched, who else might have spoken to Fanny, who had a connection with the vigilance committee?

The Morning Advertiser of Oct 3, provided details of a committee meeting...

Last night a special meeting of the Vigilance Committee, of which Mr. Lusk is chairman, took place at the committee-rooms, 74, Mile-end-road, to discuss the refusal of the Home Secretary to issue offers of a reward for the conviction of the man wanted, and to receive the expected replies from her Majesty the Queen and the Home Secretary to the petitions presented to them.

During that meeting, this occurred...

An intimation at this stage reached the meeting that some private detectives wished to be engaged in the case on behalf of the Vigilance Committee, but Mr. Reeves and Mr. Aarons announced that they had already three detectives at work, and a band of twenty young gentlemen had gathered for the purpose of patrolling one section of the haunted district, with the view of assisting the police in bringing the offender to justice. The services of these gentlemen were therefore declined.

So the committee had three detectives - not just Grand and Batchelor. Highly speculative to be sure, but could this third detective have been the important statement taker? There is no other reference to this third detective, as far as I know, and I think that includes this...

Michael Kidney: I told the inspector on duty at the police-station that I could give information provided he would let me have a young, strange detective to act on it, and he would not give me one.

Although there is still the question as to who was the source of the information that Kidney claimed to have, but held back from the coroner.

Hi Andrew,

I have to say that I award you full marks for your research.

"Why did the EN deem it appropriate to publish three reports on Mortimer, in a single edition? The other two reports quote Mortimer, so why couldn't they quote her a third time?"

As we have discussed before, I don't think the third interview, published first in the EN publication, was with Mortimer. The reporter says that he interviewed a well dressed woman, talking to neighbours, who was the wife of a well to do artisan. Mortimer's husband was a Carman. The woman also reports seeing Goldstein heading north on Berner St towards Commercial Road, where as Mortimer has him headed south and turning into Fairclough. I wondered if Mortimer may have been Letchford's sister but her wedding certificate showed her a spinster with a different maiden name. Perhaps the artisan's wife was Letchford's sister?

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Just wondering, have you posted your police-based timeline in full somewhere? I see bits mentioned in various posts but I've not seen a full presentation of what you've worked out so far, but I easily may have missed it. I would be interested to see what you've come up with so far, and the parameters you're using to build it. I'm sure we'll be using different criterion for some of our decisions, which isn't a problem because there's choices to be made, and different researchers choose different options. To make a comparison between the timelines we would want to consider those differences in choices as well (such as you're standardizing to PC Smith, and I'm standardizing to Dr. Blackwell is one such choice difference). Also, for some witnesses we have multiple news stories, where their story is told a bit differently each time, so we may be drawing upon different statements at times.

But, if despite all that, we still come to roughly similar timelines, only fixed to different standard clocks, it would improve our confidence in the robustness of the process. And, it would help point to any bits that require increased caution. For example, if you worked in Brown as per above, and he passes near the end of Fanny's vigil but before she goes in, and I have him passing shortly after she's gone inside, that would indicate we can't be sure exactly which was the case, but it appears those two events occur pretty close in time. That sort of comparison can help sharpen up our understanding of the events as well.

Anyway, glad to see others working on the same problem.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I posted my timeline some time ago on the "if Schwartz lied" thread before you published your table of estimate times. I have made a couple of small changes since then so I'll post it again here, again with my proviso that, while times are shown to a minute, they are still approximate. Times are Police times.

Before 12:34 - Wess & company leave, Letchford arrives, Lave goes outside (and returns 5 to 10 minutes later), Eagle returns to the club, Stride & companion arrive opposite the club
12:34 - Smith sees Parcelman and Stride and is heard passing by FM.
12:35 - Parcelman and Stride cross into the yard just before FM arrives at her door. FM’s clock is running 10 minutes fast and shows 12:45. Couple arrives at the corner of the board school
12:45 - PM leaves door after locking up. Brown passes and sees the couple. Couple depart. Schwartz turns into Berner St.
12:47 - BSM and Schwartz arrive at the yard and BSM pulls Stride from the yard into the street. Schwartz crosses the road and proceeds to Fairclough St. Pipeman emerges, frightens Schwartz, BSM calls out Lipski. Pipeman and Schwartz depart to the south.
12:48 - 12:53 - Someone kills Stride
12:52 Letchford’s sister leaves doorstep.
12:52 - Diemshitz turns into Berner St. Club clock is running 10 minutes slow and reads 12:42.
12:53 - PM hears the cart pass. Diemshitz pulls into yard and horse shies.
12:53 to 12:55 - Diemshitz prods Stride with whip, climbs down from cart, lights match and sees shape of woman, goes into club searching for his wife, locates candle and returns to discover the body, alerts those in the club who emerge and light matches to observe the body.
12:55 - Club members depart the yard looking for police along Fairclough.
12:57 Diemshitz returns with Spooner. Koze and Eagle depart for Commercial Road.
12:59 - Lamb is alerted in Commercial Road and proceeds to the yard. Ayliffe follows shortly after.
1:00 – Lamb is standing over body.
1:01 - Lamb sends Constable for doctor and sends Eagle to Leman St PS.
1:02 - Smith arrives at the Berner St/Commercial Road corner and proceeds to yard.
1:03 - Johnson is alerted, goes to alert Blackwell, whose pocket watch is running fast and reads 1:10
1:06 - Johnson arrives at yard and is mistaken for Blackwell by Lamb and Diemshitz. Smith leaves to fetch ambulance.
1:07 – Johnston opens Stride’s collar and begins to examine body. Lamb closes gates.
1:09 - Blackwell arrives at yard, finds gates closed. Pocket watch is running fast and shows 1:16. Finds Stride’s collar is open. Blackwell estimates Stride has been dead 20 minutes to half hour:- i.e. about 12:40 to 12:50.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

...

I've always thought it strange that for a supposedly important statement, the statement maker is neither named nor quoted. This report appeared in a few papers, including the Evening News of Oct 1. Why did the EN deem it appropriate to publish three reports on Mortimer, in a single edition? The other two reports quote Mortimer, so why couldn't they quote her a third time?...

I can't be sure if it was in Fishman's, The East End 1888, or Curtis's, Jack the Ripper and the London Press, but I read that on occasion in the Newspaper editing process a brief report might be set in the type-press. These were assembled letter by letter, therefore if a later report came in just prior to publication time it would be added in the later pages, rather than try remove the earlier account by unpicking hundreds of letters already set in columns and then shifting every other story in the press to close the gap.

Setting the type-press was a labor intensive process, they didn't always have to time to rework everything for the sake of one report.
In this case if we have three differing reports it likely means three different sources.

On a hot topic like the Whitechapel Murders a Newspaper might have their own journalist on the street interviewing witnesses, but also they might buy alternate accounts from an agency over the telegraph like the Central News or the Press Association. So in an extreme case we might read three differing accounts of a witness interview. Each account is original, yet different

[Wickerman]

...

Michael Kidney: I told the inspector on duty at the police-station that I could give information provided he would let me have a young, strange detective to act on it, and he would not give me one.

Just in case anyone was wondering, Kidney was asking for a young Detective not known to the area, a stranger.
The wording in the Daily News, 4 Oct. was easier to understand.