Whistling on Berner Street

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Jon,

I am having difficulty in refuting any of the points you have made. One curious thing about her statement is her saying "He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.". If he was headed south along Berner this would place Mrs Artisan's observation platform south of the club confining it to Packer's shop or No42. Very confusing.

Cheers, George

Given that Mortimer said she were at her door nearly all of twelve-thirty to one, and not a quarter to one and one, is the situation really confusing, or is there a simple explanation?

...the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag...

If Mortimer is regarded as having been at her doorstep for only a single period, then the word 'previously' would be redundant. However, if 'nearly the whole time' is meant to convey that she was out, in, out, at least once, then we can interpret her words to mean this...

...the only man whom I had seen pass through the street earlier was a young man carrying a black shiny bag...

Then, from the on-street interview, we have...

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

On this occasion, the man does not pass through the street, but appears to have exited the club or yard. It seems Fanny Mortimer saw Leon Goldstein, twice.

If you're not happy with that explanation, then perhaps the following will be more palatable.

Mortimer: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this morning ... and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road.

Letchford: I passed through the street at half-past 12 and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual, and my sister was standing at the door at ten minutes to one, but did not see any one pass by.

Had Letchford been working in the bar on Hanbury street that night, he likely would have entered Berner street from Commercial Road. He was 22 in 1888.

[Herlock Sholmes]

With regards to "came in contact with", could this not simply mean when he was close enough that "things started happening" (as in his Pony shied, etc) and not literally physical contact. Just thinking we can "make contact with someone", which just means to communicate with them, and in a sense there's an interaction between Stride's body and Deimshutz and his cart that begins at that point. If this choice of description is the journalist's, and not Deimshutz's actual words, it could just be another example of journalistic flair in word choice (something we always have to consider in these types of newsstories. At least we have some papers presenting transcripts of the inquests, which should be closer to what the witness actually said).

I'm just wondering if the conflicting statements only conflict due to our interpretation of the intended meaning rather than a conflict in the the intention of the speaker themself?

- Jeff

It’s a good point Jeff. When we know that these accounts weren’t verbatim reports I also think that we at least have to allow for the possibility of a bit of journalistic license. The second statement might have been in response to a question which might have been prompted by the journalist wondering if someone like Eagle could have passed through the yard normally without coming into contact with a body hidden in the shadows?

[JeffHamm]

Hello George, I can’t see how this is a case of Louis changing his story? He’s saying that his cart came into contact with the ‘bundle.’ In the second quote he’s just saying that anyone (any person not on a horse and cart) could have walked through the passageway without touching the ‘bundle.’ There’s no changing of his statement at all.

With regards to "came in contact with", could this not simply mean when he was close enough that "things started happening" (as in his Pony shied, etc) and not literally physical contact. Just thinking we can "make contact with someone", which just means to communicate with them, and in a sense there's an interaction between Stride's body and Deimshutz and his cart that begins at that point. If this choice of description is the journalist's, and not Deimshutz's actual words, it could just be another example of journalistic flair in word choice (something we always have to consider in these types of newsstories. At least we have some papers presenting transcripts of the inquests, which should be closer to what the witness actually said).

I'm just wondering if the conflicting statements only conflict due to our interpretation of the intended meaning rather than a conflict in the the intention of the speaker themself?

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I am having difficulty in refuting any of the points you have made. One curious thing about her statement is her saying "He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.". If he was headed south along Berner this would place Mrs Artisan's observation platform south of the club confining it to Packer's shop or No42. Very confusing.

Cheers, George

Hi George.

Yes, and that is the only point I feel doesn't fit.
Mortimer appears to have thought Goldstein came from Comm. Rd. but looked up at the club as he passed, whereas Mrs Artisan feels he might have come from the club. Always assuming the reporter gave an accurate retelling of her story.
Perhaps that is where the inconsistency lies, because all the other details match reasonably well.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I, perhaps, should not have noticed it if my pony had not shied. I had passed it when I got down from my barrow.
Story 1: Contact of cart with body, pony shies.
Story 2: Pony shies, cart is past body without contact.

Cheers, George

Hello George,

Sorry but I’m not getting this. If the one that you’ve quoted is your ‘story 2’ then he mentions the horse shieing. Two story’s can often be worded differently without the teller making conscious or unconscious changes.

What’s certainly worth pointing out, in regard to the question of ‘what happened to the horse and cart’ is this bit:

. I had passed it when I got down from my barrow

[GBinOz]

Hello George, I can’t see how this is a case of Louis changing his story? He’s saying that his cart came into contact with the ‘bundle.’ In the second quote he’s just saying that anyone (any person not on a horse and cart) could have walked through the passageway without touching the ‘bundle.’ There’s no changing of his statement at all.

Hi Herlock,

I, perhaps, should not have noticed it if my pony had not shied. I had passed it when I got down from my barrow.
Story 1: Contact of cart with body, pony shies.
Story 2: Pony shies, cart is past body without contact.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi George.

If you follow the words of Mortimer, she said she was at the door, then "preparing to go to bed". It was just before that when she saw Goldstein was down the street.

Mrs Artisan said she was "just before I turned in" when she saw Goldstein was up the street.

Magically, both these women were "about to go to bed" when they saw Goldstein, with his black bag pass through the street. So it's hardly likely one woman saw him leave then the other woman saw him return. The two accounts imply the same time.

It's not unusual for people to refer to "up the street", or "down the street", when referring to the same direction.
Some will refer to "up" being the nearest main road (Commercial Rd.), whereas others will refer to "up" being the house numbers increase in that direction. So, in the first case "up" towards Commercial Rd., whereas to others "up" is towards Fairclough because the street numbers increase in that direction.

The agency report (third account), though written in the first-person has no quotation marks, as opposed to the first account which does have quotation marks and offers a verbatim exchange. I point this out because a reporter (outsider) may have written the agency account, if you notice it was also the reporter (an outsider) who asked Mrs Artisan if she saw a man & woman walk "down" the street.
In both cases the reporter (not a local person) used the expression "down".

I would have to give the benefit of the doubt to the likelyhood they are the same woman.

Hi Jon,

I am having difficulty in refuting any of the points you have made. One curious thing about her statement is her saying "He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.". If he was headed south along Berner this would place Mrs Artisan's observation platform south of the club confining it to Packer's shop or No42. Very confusing.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Andrew,

"As the night was so wet I did not stay quite so late as usual." He gives the impression that he was ahead of his usual arrival time of 1:00.

"on driving into the yard my donkey shied a little in consequence of my cart coming in contact with something on the ground."
From the inquest:
A Juror: Could you in going up the yard have passed the body without touching it? - Oh, yes.
[Coroner] Any person going up the centre of the yard might have passed without noticing it? - I, perhaps, should not have noticed it if my pony had not shied. I had passed it when I got down from my barrow.
Another example of Diemshitz changing his story.

He said he alerted members on the ground floor and went with Koze with a match or a candle. It was after this point that they realised that there had been a murder, and Eagle would have still been upstairs. So Louis must have left before Koze.

It has been suggested before that Louis may have discovered his wife passed out drunk on previous occasions.

Cheers, George

Hello George, I can’t see how this is a case of Louis changing his story? He’s saying that his cart came into contact with the ‘bundle.’ In the second quote he’s just saying that anyone (any person not on a horse and cart) could have walked through the passageway without touching the ‘bundle.’ There’s no changing of his statement at all.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

There are many similarities, as would be expected around descriptions of the same event if they retired from their door step at a similar time. Having been alerted and run to the scene they would have both seen Louis, as that's were he was. But Mrs Artisan saw the man with the black bag pass up the street, and Mortimer saw him pass down the street.

Cheers, George

Hi George.

If you follow the words of Mortimer, she said she was at the door, then "preparing to go to bed". It was just before that when she saw Goldstein was down the street.

Mrs Artisan said she was "just before I turned in" when she saw Goldstein was up the street.

Magically, both these women were "about to go to bed" when they saw Goldstein, with his black bag pass through the street. So it's hardly likely one woman saw him leave then the other woman saw him return. The two accounts imply the same time.

It's not unusual for people to refer to "up the street", or "down the street", when referring to the same direction.
Some will refer to "up" being the nearest main road (Commercial Rd.), whereas others will refer to "up" being the house numbers increase in that direction. So, in the first case "up" towards Commercial Rd., whereas to others "up" is towards Fairclough because the street numbers increase in that direction.

The agency report (third account), though written in the first-person has no quotation marks, as opposed to the first account which does have quotation marks and offers a verbatim exchange. I point this out because a reporter (outsider) may have written the agency account, if you notice it was also the reporter (an outsider) who asked Mrs Artisan if she saw a man & woman walk "down" the street.
In both cases the reporter (not a local person) used the expression "down".

I would have to give the benefit of the doubt to the likelyhood they are the same woman.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Not entirely. There was a marginal note next to his report saying "Who saw this man go down Berner St. or did he come forward to clear himself is case any questions might be asked."

Wasn't that note written by someone from the Home Office?

[GBinOz]

[QUOTE=NotBlamedForNothing;n775405]

Has the presence of these three women on the street, dented your faith in Schwartz at all?

Presumably Fanny was the one who witnessed Goldstein, closest to the time of the murder. MA, Oct 3:

W. Wess, secretary of the International Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight, and stated that, it having come to his knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house with a black, shiny bag, and walking very fast down the street from the Commercial-road at about the time of the murder, was a member of the club, he persuaded him last night, between ten and eleven o'clock, to accompany him to the Leman-street station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, which was entirely satisfactory. The young man's name is Leon Goldstein, and he is a traveller.

Mrs Artisan must have seen him previously...

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

Rather than Mrs Mortimer...

...the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road.

Which is a little confusing, but there you go. Perhaps the police made a trip to the Spectacle Alley cafe that Goldstein had been to, to confirm his visit and clear up any confusion. Although according to Wess, Goldstein's statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, was deemed entirely satisfactory at the time they left Leman street station, so perhaps there was no follow up. I guess the police supposed that a man walking harmlessly down Berner street carrying a work bag, was of little or no consequence.[/QUOTE]

Not entirely. There was a marginal note next to his report saying "Who saw this man go down Berner St. or did he come forward to clear himself is case any questions might be asked."

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

A good question. And Letchford's sister was also at her door.

Cheers, George

Has the presence of these three women on the street, dented your faith in Schwartz at all?

Presumably Fanny was the one who witnessed Goldstein, closest to the time of the murder. MA, Oct 3:

W. Wess, secretary of the International Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight, and stated that, it having come to his knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house with a black, shiny bag, and walking very fast down the street from the Commercial-road at about the time of the murder, was a member of the club, he persuaded him last night, between ten and eleven o'clock, to accompany him to the Leman-street station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, which was entirely satisfactory. The young man's name is Leon Goldstein, and he is a traveller.

Mrs Artisan must have seen him previously...

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

Rather than Mrs Mortimer...

...the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road.

Which is a little confusing, but there you go. Perhaps the police made a trip to the Spectacle Alley cafe that Goldstein had been to, to confirm his visit and clear up any confusion. Although according to Wess, Goldstein's statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, was deemed entirely satisfactory at the time they left Leman street station, so perhaps there was no follow up. I guess the police supposed that a man walking harmlessly down Berner street carrying a work bag, was of little or no consequence.

[GBinOz]

Mrs Mortimer: It's goodnight from me.
Mrs Artisan: And it's goodnight from her.



Which came first?

A good question. And Letchford's sister was also at her door.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

There are many similarities, as would be expected around descriptions of the same event if they retired from their door step at a similar time.

Mrs Mortimer: It's goodnight from me.
Mrs Artisan: And it's goodnight from her.

Having been alerted and run to the scene they would have both seen Louis, as that's were he was. But Mrs Artisan saw the man with the black bag pass up the street, and Mortimer saw him pass down the street.

Which came first?

[GBinOz]

Hi George.

I do agree the report indicates there were a group of neighbors at or outside that address, yet if you take Mortimer's story step by step and compare it with that of 'Mrs Artisdan' (the first account), they are almost identical.

Both Mrs Artisan & Mortimer were "just about to go to bed".
Both responded to a commotion outside.
Both had been "at the door", and came in, when they heard an alarm.
Both mention Diemschitz as the first witness in the event.
Both ran to see, and to describe the body.
Both mention seeing "the man with the black bag", pass up the street.

All this against the husband being a "Costermonger" or an "Artisan"?

Hi Jon,

There are many similarities, as would be expected around descriptions of the same event if they retired from their door step at a similar time. Having been alerted and run to the scene they would have both seen Louis, as that's were he was. But Mrs Artisan saw the man with the black bag pass up the street, and Mortimer saw him pass down the street.

Cheers, George