Whistling on Berner Street

[GBinOz]

No. overwhelmingly the likeliest and most sensible explanation is that he was wrong about the time and that he heard Lamb blow his whistle when he was in the yard or that he heard Lamb blow his whistle, when Eagle found him, to attract the attention of the fixed point officer. Lamb would have had no reason to have mentioned this entirely trivial point.

Your suggestion about the WVC, whilst not impossible, has no basis in evidence. They were only a relatively small band of men and so there’d have been untold streets not patrolled by them.

From the Daily Telegraph account of the Inquest, PC Lamb:
I felt the wrist, but could not discern any movement of the pulse. I then blew my whistle for assistance.
When I blew my whistle other constables came

Evidently Lamb didn't consider it trivial as he mentioned it twice. Had he blown his whistle when Eagle found him he would have drawn other constables to Commercial Road. Ayliffe, who was waiting for his one o'clock finish time, was within voice range.

The names Isaacs and Jacobs are on the list of WVC members. That constitutes more as evidence than speculation about wrong times and inappropriate use of the police whistle.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Funny that the club steward of this police described "anarchist club", .. arrested the next year for assaulting police in that same yard, the club speaker and the club likely unofficial photographer...all benefiting from income or housing from the club, all seem to suggest timings that cannot be accurate.

You keep making this point, Michael and while I can understand that no one wants to lose their job the reality is that these were low paying, shabby little jobs at a shabby little club. You want us to believe that they were the CEOs of major corporations or partners in a big New York law firm. They were certainly not the only jobs in Whitechapel and lying to police in a murder investigation was taking a big risk.

c.d.

Exactly c.d. It’s preposterous that these members of a little backstreet club would instantly assume that the Police would swarm all over them and close them down for hosting a ripper murder. Then, on the spot, they come up with undoubtedly the worst plan in the history of crime, involving using a witness who can’t even speak English telling a huge lie which they had no way of knowing couldn’t have been instantly discovered and disproven and where they don’t even inform all of the plotters of the actual plot, despite there being several obvious and far more efficient alternative plans they hit on one which revolves around one anti-Semitic word. And the tame interpreter could even get that right. The mind boggles how anyone could believe this childish nonsense for a single second.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I find it really fascinating that some people are willing to discount multiple accounts of the same events at the same time by multiple witnesses and yest accept accounts that are by people with bias and without one verifiable corroborative source. Arbeter Fraint says later that month that something happened at 12:45, multiple witnesses says something happened at 12:40ish, and a police officer says he arrived at the gates before Louis Diemshitz says he even arrived to discover the body. That last point is huge, if you are looking to discover what actually happened. Lamb could not have been summoned to the gates before the body was discovered, could he? Yet it appears some are comfortable with erasing statements that contradict Louis nonetheless.

The preponderance of evidence that is available, without this modern creative and inventive analysis, suggest that for Lamb to be summoned there before 1, the people he met to summon him....(1 of which later claims Louis arrived when he said he did...joined by one witness who said "Louis or some other member sent him out for help just after 12:40"), must have left to seek help at least 5-10 minutes prior to Lambs arrival by summons. Which aligns perfectly with the multiple witnesses who stated they became aware of the body there before 12:45.

All this revisionist opinion about whose times matched the actual clocks available is erroneous, at least 3 of the people that stated the earlier time came from inside buildings which most certainly had time pieces available to check. Louis didnt, Eagle didnt, Lave didnt, and Schwartz, if he was there, did not. However Mortimer did, Heschberg did, Kozebrodski did..and he had just arrived back at the club and marked that time as 12:30. No 2 clocks need be synchronized...and surely were not. But multiple witnesses suggesting the same times are far too compelling to be dismissed by theorists who wish to explain the problems with the ones that no one could give secondary support to just because they wish to believe them.

Funny that the club steward of this police described "anarchist club", .. arrested the next year for assaulting police in that same yard, the club speaker and the club likely unofficial photographer...all benefiting from income or housing from the club, all seem to suggest timings that cannot be accurate. Lamb, a policeman who HAD TO know his beat times, should be enough to reveal the truth here.

People who read opinions that defy logic and reason should be allowed to read ones that actually incorporate both as well. This is real history, not Wikipedia.

The only ‘revisionism’ is from a man who’s opinion and theory has been utterly dismissed by everyone who has an opinion on the subject (apart from possibly one person.) I’m not interested in any nonsense that you come out with. More bleating about ‘multiple’ witnesses.

Your theory is a joke. It’s been dismissed. It was dismissed 20 years ago. It’s been dismissed today. We should all move on and leave this babyish attempt at distorting the facts purely for reasons of personal aggrandisement. So you can keep jumping up and down shouting “I’m right, I’m right please agree with me,” all you like but it will change nothing. You’re completely and utterly wrong in everything you claim and the worst part about it is that I think that you know that your wrong.

Unhitch the ego, wake up, look around you and notice that your on your own…….and accept that your wrong.

[c.d.]

Funny that the club steward of this police described "anarchist club", .. arrested the next year for assaulting police in that same yard, the club speaker and the club likely unofficial photographer...all benefiting from income or housing from the club, all seem to suggest timings that cannot be accurate.

You keep making this point, Michael and while I can understand that no one wants to lose their job the reality is that these were low paying, shabby little jobs at a shabby little club. You want us to believe that they were the CEOs of major corporations or partners in a big New York law firm. They were certainly not the only jobs in Whitechapel and lying to police in a murder investigation was taking a big risk.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

I find it really fascinating that some people are willing to discount multiple accounts of the same events at the same time by multiple witnesses and yest accept accounts that are by people with bias and without one verifiable corroborative source. Arbeter Fraint says later that month that something happened at 12:45, multiple witnesses says something happened at 12:40ish, and a police officer says he arrived at the gates before Louis Diemshitz says he even arrived to discover the body. That last point is huge, if you are looking to discover what actually happened. Lamb could not have been summoned to the gates before the body was discovered, could he? Yet it appears some are comfortable with erasing statements that contradict Louis nonetheless.

The preponderance of evidence that is available, without this modern creative and inventive analysis, suggest that for Lamb to be summoned there before 1, the people he met to summon him....(1 of which later claims Louis arrived when he said he did...joined by one witness who said "Louis or some other member sent him out for help just after 12:40"), must have left to seek help at least 5-10 minutes prior to Lambs arrival by summons. Which aligns perfectly with the multiple witnesses who stated they became aware of the body there before 12:45.

All this revisionist opinion about whose times matched the actual clocks available is erroneous, at least 3 of the people that stated the earlier time came from inside buildings which most certainly had time pieces available to check. Louis didnt, Eagle didnt, Lave didnt, and Schwartz, if he was there, did not. However Mortimer did, Heschberg did, Kozebrodski did..and he had just arrived back at the club and marked that time as 12:30. No 2 clocks need be synchronized...and surely were not. But multiple witnesses suggesting the same times are far too compelling to be dismissed by theorists who wish to explain the problems with the ones that no one could give secondary support to just because they wish to believe them.

Funny that the club steward of this police described "anarchist club", .. arrested the next year for assaulting police in that same yard, the club speaker and the club likely unofficial photographer...all benefiting from income or housing from the club, all seem to suggest timings that cannot be accurate. Lamb, a policeman who HAD TO know his beat times, should be enough to reveal the truth here.

People who read opinions that defy logic and reason should be allowed to read ones that actually incorporate both as well. This is real history, not Wikipedia.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. It's not important to you? Is that why you didn't bother arguing the issue?

If Herschburg was at home and heard a policeman's whistle, then the whistler was likely a WVC patrolman on the street, who became aware of the situation at the yard, at a very early stage. There are several possible implications of this, including what he might have seen just prior and after the murder, what happened at the gates in the immediate aftermath of the discovery, his possible link to Schwartz's account, and the two men who may have been known to each other. Discussing these possibilities was part of my intention when starting this thread, but rather predictably, it never happened. Too far removed from the Standard Model of Berner Street, I guess. However, as the theory that a man on WVC patrol was responsible for the early whistle, has not been challenged, these are totally valid points for discussion. Those with more orthodox views will probably disagree though, and by all means, call it conspiracy theory if it makes you feel better.

No. overwhelmingly the likeliest and most sensible explanation is that he was wrong about the time and that he heard Lamb blow his whistle when he was in the yard or that he heard Lamb blow his whistle, when Eagle found him, to attract the attention of the fixed point officer. Lamb would have had no reason to have mentioned this entirely trivial point.

Your suggestion about the WVC, whilst not impossible, has no basis in evidence. They were only a relatively small band of men and so there’d have been untold streets not patrolled by them.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. You misquoted me. Deliberately, of course.

Why would I ‘deliberately’ misquote you when I know full well that you will respond by pointing this out?

I certainly didn’t read the full quote though. That was my error.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. You mean a club occupied by rough Anarchists? Is that why he said ...?

There was a row there last Sunday night. It went on till about 2 in the morning, and in the end two people were arrested.

I don't think he was holding back, at all.

Fights would hardly have been a rarity. I was talking about political activism. As you well know.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Standing outside the club, use of the words 'we' and 'here', would have implied a personal association. The following does not ...

They have demonstrations up there, and concerts, for which they have a stage and plane.

If it is so obvious that 'came down' means he came downstairs, then why would he continually speak as an outsider? Is he trying to hide his association with the club? If yes, then why would he also imply that he came down the club stairs? Doesn't make sense. He came down from 28 Berner street

As ever you ignore the fact that these were Press interviews. Reporters who would take notes then write them up for printing later. They aren’t verbatim recordings so we have to keep in mind the possibility that words used might not have been the exact words spoken.

If the quote beginning “They have demonstrations…..” is accurate (and it might be) then the use of ‘they’ might signify 2 things. 1) that he might not actually have been a member, and 2) that ‘they’ meant the committee. The people that ran the club.

“Up there,” indicates upstairs.

Without stronger evidence (or just evidence) your claim to certainty about where Hoschberg came from holds no water.

…..

It’s noticeable that those who claim that Fanny was on her doorstep at 12.45 don’t question why she didn’t see Hoschberg passing?

[Herlock Sholmes]

. I'm claiming to know that Herschburg did not know the name of the steward.

The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name I do not know, a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market.

Cleary I'm making an absurd leap of faith, in coming to this conclusion

As you well know, the ‘leap’ that I’m talking about isn’t that he actually said this but the fact that you find it mysterious. We don’t know how long that he’d been a member (if he was a member) or how often he attended the club? So we can’t assume that he’d have known Diemschitz name. You make that assumption though.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ah, yes, they were there in 1881. Nathan was a tailor and Abraham was recorded as being 10. He had a younger brother, Morris, 8, and three older sisters.

The head of the household in 1887 was a tailor and he had 1 daughter and two sons at work, so that could well be the same family.

Thanks for the info. So Herschburg's family name was indeed Ashbrigh?

What is your take on Louis Diemschitz being referred to in the press as 'Mr Lewis'? Is it possible the locals knew him by that name? Why 'Mr Lewis' and not 'Mr Louis'?

Interestingly, there was a club member of first name Lewis.

Wess: I went into the club and called my brother, and we went home together-going into the street together with Lewis Selzi, who lives close to us.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don’t have a ‘whole argument,’ you’re clearly the one with the agenda here.

Yes I do; to identify JtR. You're clearly opposed to that.

There’s a world of difference between your ‘leaps of faith’ and me suggesting that ‘down’ implies going ‘down’ the stairs and that ‘there’ implies a location not presently occupied by the speaker. You after all are the one claiming to know what Hoschberg would or wouldn’t have known when this certainly is an unknown.

I'm claiming to know that Herschburg did not know the name of the steward.

The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name I do not know, a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market.

Cleary I'm making an absurd leap of faith, in coming to this conclusion.

So he wasn’t in the yard therefore the word ‘there’ is perfectly logical.

Standing outside the club, use of the words 'we' and 'here', would have implied a personal association. The following does not ...

They have demonstrations up there, and concerts, for which they have a stage and plane.

If it is so obvious that 'came down' means he came downstairs, then why would he continually speak as an outsider? Is he trying to hide his association with the club? If yes, then why would he also imply that he came down the club stairs? Doesn't make sense. He came down from 28 Berner street.

I’m not saying that it was a secret but Hoschberg might simply have been a little reluctant to admit to being in a club of that nature.

You mean a club occupied by rough Anarchists? Is that why he said ...?

There was a row there last Sunday night. It went on till about 2 in the morning, and in the end two people were arrested.

I don't think he was holding back, at all.

I'm quite aware that people were upstairs. These people were interacting - singing, dancing, talking politics. The idea that one of them alone would hear a whistle, seemingly not mention it to anyone else, and then go downstairs alone, is totally ludicrous.

Yet you said: “Last but not least, no one from the club is on record as saying they were upstairs” And I quoted Eagle…..who said exactly that.

You misquoted me. Deliberately, of course.

Last but not least, no one from the club is on record as saying they were upstairs or anywhere else at the time, and heard a whistle before the police arrived.

It’s not important to me where Hoschberg was when he first learned of events in Dutfield’s Yard and I can’t really see why it’s so important to you unless you have conspiracy #12 lined up and it’s vital for Hoschberg to have been at home? Was he the Ripper as well? My own position is that ‘down’ implies that he came downstairs like Eagle and Gilleman. Maybe he was at home? Nothing proves it though.

It's not important to you? Is that why you didn't bother arguing the issue?

If Herschburg was at home and heard a policeman's whistle, then the whistler was likely a WVC patrolman on the street, who became aware of the situation at the yard, at a very early stage. There are several possible implications of this, including what he might have seen just prior and after the murder, what happened at the gates in the immediate aftermath of the discovery, his possible link to Schwartz's account, and the two men who may have been known to each other. Discussing these possibilities was part of my intention when starting this thread, but rather predictably, it never happened. Too far removed from the Standard Model of Berner Street, I guess. However, as the theory that a man on WVC patrol was responsible for the early whistle, has not been challenged, these are totally valid points for discussion. Those with more orthodox views will probably disagree though, and by all means, call it conspiracy theory if it makes you feel better.

[MrBarnett]

Copy & paste

According to Tom Wescott in RC:

At #28 we find the residence of Nathan and Ester Ashbrigh and their five children. Their eldest son, Abraham, is the young man referred to in the press at the time as 'Hoshberg', 'Heshburg', and 'Heahbury'. The young assertive and seemingly bright Abraham was 17 at the time of Stride's death.

Ah, yes, they were there in 1881. Nathan was a tailor and Abraham was recorded as being 10. He had a younger brother, Morris, 8, and three older sisters.

The head of the household in 1887 was a tailor and he had 1 daughter and two sons at work, so that could well be the same family.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This is a rather amusing statement, coming from someone who complains of "your stating of an opinion as a fact, again". If he wasn't at his home, your whole argument collapses, and so by insisting that Herschburg was in the club at the time, and that he referred to 'there', from home, it is you who are stating opinion as fact.

I don’t have a ‘whole argument,’ you’re clearly the one with the agenda here.


There’s a world of difference between your ‘leaps of faith’ and me suggesting that ‘down’ implies going ‘down’ the stairs and that ‘there’ implies a location not presently occupied by the speaker. You after all are the one claiming to know what Hoschberg would or wouldn’t have known when this certainly is an unknown.


So where was Herschburg at the time of the interview? The reporter who interviewed him and others, was on the street ...

So he wasn’t in the yard therefore the word ‘there’ is perfectly logical.

In order to inquire further into these matters, the reporter next visited the club referred to , a rather low class little building covered with posters, most of them in the Hebrew language. Mrs Lewis, wife of the steward, as she explained, was standing at the door in the centre of a host of people, but she declined to call on her husband, who had been up all night, and had only just gone to bed. Pressed to speak as to the character of the club, Mrs Lewis was inclined to be retired, but a young man in the crowd volunteered an explanation of the institution. "You see," he explained, "the members are bad Jews - Jews who do not heed their religion, and they annoy those who do in order to show contempt for the religion. In the Black Fast a week or two ago, for instance, they had a banquet, and ostentatiously ate and drank, while we might do neither. They hold concerts there till early in the morning, and women and girls are brought there." "Were they here last night?" asked the reporter. "No" said Mrs Lewis, "there was only a concert and discussion on last night."

The very next line reads ...

The young fellow who had previously spoken gave some further details at some length on the finding of the body by Lewis, but he could give no further facts that those given in the above statements.

So there is Abraham Herschburg, standing right outside the club, adding details to his previous statement. When he refers to 'there' and 'they', he is indicating that he is not one of them.

Why do you assume that this is Hoschberg? This could have been someone else.

Apparently at this point, he was still not aware of the steward's name. It would also seem that the locals (probably the English ones), knew of Mr Diemschitz as Mr Lewis. So who were the friends of the steward that told a reporter that 'Lewis' had returned at about 12:45? These friends seem to have told Mrs Artisan/Mortimer, similar details (either that, or she was an interview dwelling busybody). A terrifying possibility (for some) is that the friends were club members.

Even though the man isn’t named you assume that it’s Hoschberg? I’m only surprised that with your approach you don’t come u with even more cover-ups and plots. You assume that you know unnamed people, you assume that you know what people should or shouldn’t have known. You should have solved the case by now.



If he'd only been told the name Koster, as opposed to the whole story, then how would he know that that was not the name of the man with the pony and cart? He wouldn't, of course, and so he must have heard the story as well. So when did hear the story? When he was inside the club? When he went home perhaps? Or was it when he was being interviewed on the street? Why would someone in the club be telling the Koster story, unless it was true? So I guess you're wrong about him being interviewed at home (twice), unless his father told him the Koster story.

Do we know when this interview took place?

So Herschburg had encyclopedic knowledge of everything to do with the club, the yard, the workers, the discovery, and the state of the victim, but the one thing this supposed member did not know, was the name of the man who discovered the body, who was also the steward! Even after (supposedly) being locked in the yard for hours, he still didn't manage to find out. Right.

Exaggeration of course.

Well lets' see ...

AH: [I] came down to see what was the matter in the gateway. Two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short dark young woman lying on the ground ...

Arbeter Fraint: “Don’t you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard?” Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. “What, don’t you believe me?” Gilyarovsky quickly asked: “I saw blood.” Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate. The gate was open and it was very dark near the gate. A black object was barely discernable near the brick building. Once they got very close, they could notice that it was the shape of a woman that was lying with its face to the wall, with its head toward the yard and with its feet pointing to the gate. Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body.

Any non-members mentioned there? Anyone named Herschburg?

No, but then again Hoschberg had only seen the other body. The one that was discovered at 12.45.

The above statement proves nothing as you well know.

Then why not just a call it a workingmen's club, which does match part of the name?

By the way, this is what the reporter said about the club ...

... No. 40 Berner street, which is occupied by the International Workingmen's Education Society - a club of Jewish Socialists, mostly of foreign extraction who, judging from statements made this morning in the neighbourhood, are not in very good odour with their orthodox co-religionists.

Apparently, the nature of the club was no secret.

I’m not saying that it was a secret but Hoschberg might simply have been a little reluctant to admit to being in a club of that nature.

In the course of an interview with a witness shortly after 6 o'clock this morning Abraham Heshberg, a young fellow, living at 20 Berner street, said- "I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway.

The reporter is implying that he came down from 20 Berner street. No mention at all is made of him being at the club, or having any association with it.

He’s implying nothing.

I'm quite aware that people were upstairs. These people were interacting - singing, dancing, talking politics. The idea that one of them alone would hear a whistle, seemingly not mention it to anyone else, and then go downstairs alone, is totally ludicrous.

Yet you said: “Last but not least, no one from the club is on record as saying they were upstairs” And I quoted Eagle…..who said exactly that.

It’s not important to me where Hoschberg was when he first learned of events in Dutfield’s Yard and I can’t really see why it’s so important to you unless you have conspiracy #12 lined up and it’s vital for Hoschberg to have been at home? Was he the Ripper as well? My own position is that ‘down’ implies that he came downstairs like Eagle and Gilleman. Maybe he was at home? Nothing proves it though.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It does indeed. There was no one living there in 1891, but there was a tailor in residence in 1887.

Was 20 your typo or a press error?

Copy & paste

According to Tom Wescott in RC:

At #28 we find the residence of Nathan and Ester Ashbrigh and their five children. Their eldest son, Abraham, is the young man referred to in the press at the time as 'Hoshberg', 'Heshburg', and 'Heahbury'. The young assertive and seemingly bright Abraham was 17 at the time of Stride's death.