Whistling on Berner Street

[MrBarnett]

Maybe, but what's wrong with calling him 'Mr Diemschitz'?



Your earlier post ...



10 + (1888 - 1881) = 17

----

Could you please locate a Joseph Koster in the census?

IT: About five minutes to one o'clock this morning a youth about twenty years of age named Joseph Koster was accosted by a little boy who came running up to him as he was passing on the opposite side of 40 Berner street, used by the International Socialist Club, and told him that a woman was lying in the gateway next to the club, with her throat cut.

It's interesting that we are given an approximate time, age, his name and his whereabouts when he was 'accosted'. Yet if the story was found to be false, no later than about 6am in the morning of the murder, why do we ever hear of this individual?

Duh! For some reason I was thinking of his age in 1891.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

That’s how it was spelt on the census, but I would imagine it was something closer to Herschburg. Hearing Lewis as opposed to Louis might be the norm for Brits.

Maybe, but what's wrong with calling him 'Mr Diemschitz'?

BTW, where do you get your age of 17 for Herschburg?
Going by the 1881 census he would have been 20.

Your earlier post ...

Ah, yes, they were there in 1881. Nathan was a tailor and Abraham was recorded as being 10. He had a younger brother, Morris, 8, and three older sisters.

The head of the household in 1887 was a tailor and he had 1 daughter and two sons at work, so that could well be the same family.

10 + (1888 - 1881) = 17

----

Could you please locate a Joseph Koster in the census?

IT: About five minutes to one o'clock this morning a youth about twenty years of age named Joseph Koster was accosted by a little boy who came running up to him as he was passing on the opposite side of 40 Berner street, used by the International Socialist Club, and told him that a woman was lying in the gateway next to the club, with her throat cut.

It's interesting that we are given an approximate time, age, his name and his whereabouts when he was 'accosted'. Yet if the story was found to be false, no later than about 6am in the morning of the murder, why do we ever hear of this individual?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What time are you claiming that Fanny locked up? I thought that you were of the belief that she went onto her doorstep at 12.45?

Hard to say with any precision of course, but on balance - by which I mean when considering the various somewhat contradictory time related statements - I'd say she locked up about midway between 12:45 and 1:00.

And as someone who is apparently reluctant to accept reasonable margins for error then we have a potential clash. If Hoschberg got to the yard at 12.45 then the body must have been discovered slightly before that. Ie slightly before 12.45. So slightly before Fanny went onto her doorstep.

Which way do you want it? Just keep rearranging the goalposts.

What I want is for you to quote me saying that AH arrived at the yard, bang on 12:45. That is not what I suppose. Which part of this post don't you understand?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

As to another matter, .. "As you well know, Wess described the club as Socialist, under oath."...this member must not be aware that in a letter by Willam Morris, a friend of Wolff Wess's, he declined the invitation to speak at the club because his personal views didnt allign with "anarchist" ones.

Not the point. I was asking HS if he thought Wess had been totally forthcoming about the political nature of the club. Apparently you suppose that he was not.

Fanny by the by stood at her door from 12:50 until 1...paraphrasing her own statement..and went indoors just after 1. Louis did not approach or arrive during that period. Lets use the oft fired...well, their timing must have been off..If Fanny is correct then Lamb must have arrived just after 1am, and start the commotion that Fanny would hear from indoors around 1:04ish. To make Lamb possibly off by a minute is far better that suggesting that a number of corroborative accounts were off by 20 minutes, wouldnt you agree? The problem here is some would prefer the latter despite the evidence, which to me indicates some kind of belief system is finding their solutions, not the logical interpretation then application of the documented statements.

Lamb's arrival did not start the commotion. It would more correct to say that his arrival had the effect of ending the commotion.

FM: A man touched her face and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house.

That man was probably Ed Spooner. Like Herschburg, Fanny seems to have arrived just before the police did.

[GBinOz]

The names Isaacs and Jacobs aren’t necessarily the same men. These aren’t scarce names George so that’s too tenuous to prove anything.

Look we’ve been going round in circles for ever and to be honest George I’m well passed tired of it. I can’t stop anyone thinking what they want to but Hoschberg was clearly wrong in the time that he gave. Not a smidgeon of doubt in my mind. We know what happened so why do we keep dragging this out?

Schwartz incident might or might not have been the killer. Stride’s killer might or might not have been the Ripper. Stride was killed 12.45-1.00. Fanny went onto her doorstep around 12.35 for around 10 minutes then went back inside missing the incident. Diemschitz found the body at 1.00 (accepting the possibility of clock variations) All silly newspaper rumours or nonsense about the use of the word ‘up’ or ‘down’ should be dismissed. Goldstein wasn’t involved in any way so can be ignored as irrelevant. We can learn nothing more so all ‘Berner Street’ threads have become Conspiracy City (and no, I’m not accusing you of being a conspiracy theorist George) There’s too much reading between the lines going going on. And some use this to further an agenda.

Berner Street sorted……way past time to move on.

Hi Herlock,

After Jeff presented his timeline based on Blackwell time he asked to see my timeline based on Police time and concluded that they were substantially in agreement. I thought that the "times" aspect had at that stage been fully addressed (did you read the timelines?).

On this tread, titled "whistling on berner street", the discussion was who might have blown the police whistle prior to the police being located. You presented two alternatives, the first of which was a re-statement of your standard "the time was wrong and can be dismissed". Both Hosch and Harris heard a whistle before the police had been located. Your second suggestion denies the whole purpose of police whistles, that being, as Lamb stated, to summon assistance. In your scenario the summoned constables would have converged on Commercial Road and found nobody there as Lamb and Ayliffe had departed.

Names on a list don't prove anything but, with all due respect, they present a more (I'll refrain from the superlatives) likely possibility than whistling at the wrong time or the wrong place.

While there is "between the lines reading" going on, some of which pushes my envelope of credibility, there is also a lot of repetitive "dismissing" occurring regarding times and language based entirely on speculation that supports a point of view. There is no round mark on my forehead where someone has held a gun and forced me to challenge and dismiss out of hand every opinion presented that may not be to my liking. I participate in forums to share ideas while accepting that others will have ideas, some of which will be highly speculative and some of which will be rusted on traditional. The middle ground is the productive area of discussion IMO.

Cheers, George

[MrBarnett]

Thanks for the info. So Herschburg's family name was indeed Ashbrigh?

What is your take on Louis Diemschitz being referred to in the press as 'Mr Lewis'? Is it possible the locals knew him by that name? Why 'Mr Lewis' and not 'Mr Louis'?

Interestingly, there was a club member of first name Lewis.

Wess: I went into the club and called my brother, and we went home together-going into the street together with Lewis Selzi, who lives close to us.

That’s how it was spelt on the census, but I would imagine it was something closer to Herschburg. Hearing Lewis as opposed to Louis might be the norm for Brits.

BTW, where do you get your age of 17 for Herschburg?
Going by the 1881 census he would have been 20.

[Michael W Richards]

Funny that the club steward of this police described "anarchist club", .. arrested the next year for assaulting police in that same yard, the club speaker and the club likely unofficial photographer...all benefiting from income or housing from the club, all seem to suggest timings that cannot be accurate.

You keep making this point, Michael and while I can understand that no one wants to lose their job the reality is that these were low paying, shabby little jobs at a shabby little club. You want us to believe that they were the CEOs of major corporations or partners in a big New York law firm. They were certainly not the only jobs in Whitechapel and lying to police in a murder investigation was taking a big risk.

c.d.

You have one the one hand the local law officials referring casually to this club as an "anarchists" club and you have locals referring to men found there after Saturday evening meetings had ended as "low men", perhaps the only issue for them with this incident might not be the club remaining open. They might well be involved in activities that were unlawful. They sure as hell were 6 months later when they attacked the police with clubs, resulting in the arrest of a number of them.

As to another matter, .. "As you well know, Wess described the club as Socialist, under oath."...this member must not be aware that in a letter by Willam Morris, a friend of Wolff Wess's, he declined the invitation to speak at the club because his personal views didnt allign with "anarchist" ones.

Fanny by the by stood at her door from 12:50 until 1...paraphrasing her own statement..and went indoors just after 1. Louis did not approach or arrive during that period. Lets use the oft fired...well, their timing must have been off..If Fanny is correct then Lamb must have arrived just after 1am, and start the commotion that Fanny would hear from indoors around 1:04ish. To make Lamb possibly off by a minute is far better that suggesting that a number of corroborative accounts were off by 20 minutes, wouldnt you agree? The problem here is some would prefer the latter despite the evidence, which to me indicates some kind of belief system is finding their solutions, not the logical interpretation then application of the documented statements.

For all the hot air a blowin there is 1 fact that is incontrovertible, the statements given by all the witnesses as recorded cannot be used to construct an accurate timeline of events or of characters for the period from 12:35 until after 1am, when the police leave the scene, then are on scene again, respectively. They conflict, and many are not corroborated statements, which are always preferable initially.

Perhaps that same kind of simple logic applies to Israel Schwartz and his remarkable tale being omitted in its entirety from the Inquest, they couldnt prove or disprove anything he claimed,..not even that he was there in the first place. Only people we KNOW were at least there, by second hand sourcing, are used.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

No. overwhelmingly the likeliest and most sensible explanation is that he was wrong about the time and that he heard Lamb blow his whistle when he was in the yard or that he heard Lamb blow his whistle, when Eagle found him, to attract the attention of the fixed point officer. Lamb would have had no reason to have mentioned this entirely trivial point.

Let's consider what is seriously being suggested here.

What does Mrs Diemschitz tell us occurred, after she first set eyes on the victim?

I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard.

What does Lamb tell us about the number of people in the yard, when he arrived?

I should think 20 or 30. Some of that number had followed me in.

So where was Abraham Herschburg, at this point? Well according to this theory he was still upstairs, and would remain so until Lamb blew his whistle. Only then did he come down to see what the matter was. So while all the other members had already gone into the yard, Herschburg remained upstairs, by himself. How bizarre. So how did Herschburg describe this commotion of people, in that small area, when he finally came down?

Two or three people had collected...

What did Lamb say about the proximity of those in the yard to the victim, when he arrived?

There was no one within a yard of it.

What did Lamb say about keeping it that way?

As I was examining the body some crowded round. I begged them to keep back, and told them they might get some of the blood on their clothing, and by that means get themselves into trouble.

What close-up details of the victim, did Herschburg describe?

She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous.

According to this theory, this was ascertained by Herschburg after Lamb blew his whistle. So under oath, Lamb failed to mention that he had allowed a 17 y/o to poke around the victim, without protest from himself. No doubt his failure to do so, was due to him considering this to be an entirely trivial point.

Your suggestion about the WVC, whilst not impossible, has no basis in evidence. They were only a relatively small band of men and so there’d have been untold streets not patrolled by them.

No basis in evidence? So tell me about Mr Harris ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

The question is non-sensical. Herschburg became aware of the incident after the discovery. By the time Fanny locked-up, the discovery was yet to occur, or was just occurring.

What time are you claiming that Fanny locked up? I thought that you were of the belief that she went onto her doorstep at 12.45? And as someone who is apparently reluctant to accept reasonable margins for error then we have a potential clash. If Hoschberg got to the yard at 12.45 then the body must have been discovered slightly before that. Ie slightly before 12.45. So slightly before Fanny went onto her doorstep.

Which way do you want it? Just keep rearranging the goalposts.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As you well know, Wess described the club as Socialist, under oath. So it's not clear why you're going on about Anarchists. Are you suggesting that in describing the club as Socialist, and not mentioning any other political descriptors, Wess was being loose with the truth?

You know very well what point I was making. The point that socialism was seen in some quarters as dangerous. Like being and anarchist or a terrorist.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Not reading posts carefully, seems to be a bit a habit of yours.

At least I’ll admit to an error. Unlike you.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Why would I ‘deliberately’ misquote you when I know full well that you will respond by pointing this out?

I certainly didn’t read the full quote though. That was my error.

Not reading posts carefully, seems to be a bit a habit of yours.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Fights would hardly have been a rarity. I was talking about political activism. As you well know.

As you well know, Wess described the club as Socialist, under oath. So it's not clear why you're going on about Anarchists. Are you suggesting that in describing the club as Socialist, and not mentioning any other political descriptors, Wess was being loose with the truth?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It’s noticeable that those who claim that Fanny was on her doorstep at 12.45 don’t question why she didn’t see Hoschberg passing?

The question is non-sensical. Herschburg became aware of the incident after the discovery. By the time Fanny locked-up, the discovery was yet to occur, or was just occurring.

[Herlock Sholmes]

From the Daily Telegraph account of the Inquest, PC Lamb:
I felt the wrist, but could not discern any movement of the pulse. I then blew my whistle for assistance.
When I blew my whistle other constables came

Evidently Lamb didn't consider it trivial as he mentioned it twice. Had he blown his whistle when Eagle found him he would have drawn other constables to Commercial Road. Ayliffe, who was waiting for his one o'clock finish time, was within voice range.

The names Isaacs and Jacobs are on the list of WVC members. That constitutes more as evidence than speculation about wrong times and inappropriate use of the police whistle.

Cheers, George

The names Isaacs and Jacobs aren’t necessarily the same men. These aren’t scarce names George so that’s too tenuous to prove anything.

Look we’ve been going round in circles for ever and to be honest George I’m well passed tired of it. I can’t stop anyone thinking what they want to but Hoschberg was clearly wrong in the time that he gave. Not a smidgeon of doubt in my mind. We know what happened so why do we keep dragging this out?

Schwartz incident might or might not have been the killer. Stride’s killer might or might not have been the Ripper. Stride was killed 12.45-1.00. Fanny went onto her doorstep around 12.35 for around 10 minutes then went back inside missing the incident. Diemschitz found the body at 1.00 (accepting the possibility of clock variations) All silly newspaper rumours or nonsense about the use of the word ‘up’ or ‘down’ should be dismissed. Goldstein wasn’t involved in any way so can be ignored as irrelevant. We can learn nothing more so all ‘Berner Street’ threads have become Conspiracy City (and no, I’m not accusing you of being a conspiracy theorist George) There’s too much reading between the lines going going on. And some use this to further an agenda.

Berner Street sorted……way past time to move on.