A new front in the history wars? A new article on 'the five'

[rjpalmer]

Then Annie. Apart from the millions to one chances of the ripper just finding her there why sleep in someone’s yard with an outside loo? She might have got turfed out at any time.

Hi Michael.

I posted an article on Howard Brown's site of a Victorian era woman, described as an 'unfortunate,' attacked while sleeping in an outhouse, so I'm not as certain as you are that it would be a million to one. If the Ripper was himself a derelict out at night, he had to take a piss as much as the next man.

I can appreciate people being skeptical about the Ripper finding a woman sleeping rough in the backyard of Hanbury Street; on the other hand, I've never been too keen on the idea of a middle-aged woman with one foot in the grave soliciting at 5.25 a.m. in the morning, ie., several hours after the pubs have closed down.

The evidence that she was soliciting comes from Elizabeth Long. If you are willing to ignore that evidence as dubious, Annie could just as easily have been followed by someone who watched her enter the passage.

I'm fine with accepting Long's evidence, but bear in mind that means the suspect was a foreigner over the age of 40.

How many people in these parts are willing to throw their preferred suspect in the rubbish bin on the strength of that evidence?

Cheers.

[rjpalmer]

Show me a woman lying supine on a hard surface. And if you find one, make a mental note of how many others you saw tucked into a corner or against a wall.

Hi Gary.

For the sake of clarity, why on earth does the rough sleeper have to be supine? Did Rubenold make that argument? That's rather a strange requirement, isn't it?

Can't a murderer roll a woman onto her back?

The final position of the corpse doesn't tell you how the woman was positioned when attacked, regardless of whether she was sitting, standing, soliciting, walking, or slumped against a gate.

Obviously, I agree that the 'beat' system is a major problem for Rubenhold's theory.

I don't care much for Bleakley's essay, but he does link 3 modern cases of people attacked while sleeping rough. A young woman found dead while presumably sleeping rough in a park in Melbourne; a Chinese man beaten to death in New York while sleeping on the sidewalk at night; an Irishman beaten and burned to death while sleeping in a homeless camp near Cork.

People out after dark in slummy areas are at risk of being victimized whether they are soliciting or not.

[Losmandris]

Stride as a victim is a subject of debate of course but if she was a victim there could hardly have been a worse spot to have bed down for the night. An open gateway, a club with lights on and singing coming from inside and right next to a door.

Polly too. Why lie down in front of some gates that for all she’d known might have opened up for work 2 hours later?

Then Annie. Apart from the millions to one chances of the ripper just finding her there why sleep in someone’s yard with an outside loo? She might have got turfed out at any time.

Sadly these women would have experienced rough sleepers. They would have known ‘better’ spots. At least spots where they would have been less likely to have been disturbed or moved on (which probably wouldn’t have been in the form of a polite request.)

Clearly common sense does not hold much sway in academic circles these days!

[Herlock Sholmes]

We can’t see what surrounds the woman in your photo. She’s lying between a bin (?) and a tree and has filled that spot with bedding.

Show me a woman lying supine on a hard surface. And if you find one, make a mental note of how many others you saw tucked into a corner or against a wall.

I’m not sure where your rough sleeper was located, but I would imagine that the local police force has a more relaxed attitude to rough sleeping than did the Victorian City of London force.

Stride as a victim is a subject of debate of course but if she was a victim there could hardly have been a worse spot to have bed down for the night. An open gateway, a club with lights on and singing coming from inside and right next to a door.

Polly too. Why lie down in front of some gates that for all she’d known might have opened up for work 2 hours later?

Then Annie. Apart from the millions to one chances of the ripper just finding her there why sleep in someone’s yard with an outside loo? She might have got turfed out at any time.

Sadly these women would have experienced rough sleepers. They would have known ‘better’ spots. At least spots where they would have been less likely to have been disturbed or moved on (which probably wouldn’t have been in the form of a polite request.)

[Observer]

I don't think the murderer is victimizing "prostitutes." He is victimizing middle-aged alcoholics who are out on the street at night. I doubt it mattered one iota to him if they were soliciting or merely wandering the streets.

Of course, for the likes of Nichols and Chapman, prostitution wasn't the only method of earning a few pennies street begging was also another way

[MrBarnett]

Indeed it could be. And it looks like someone is sleeping there.

Here's another sleeper:



I am not defending Rubenhold per se, but my worry is that, in their zeal to dismiss her thesis as garbage, her critics are overstating their own assumptions as certainties.

Personally, although I don't accept many of her arguments, I think she is in the right ballpark psychologically.

I don't think the murderer is victimizing "prostitutes." He is victimizing middle-aged alcoholics who are out on the street at night. I doubt it mattered one iota to him if they were soliciting or merely wandering the streets.

We can’t see what surrounds the woman in your photo. She’s lying between a bin (?) and a tree and has filled that spot with bedding.

Show me a woman lying supine on a hard surface. And if you find one, make a mental note of how many others you saw tucked into a corner or against a wall.

I’m not sure where your rough sleeper was located, but I would imagine that the local police force has a more relaxed attitude to rough sleeping than did the Victorian City of London force.

[Observer]

That must be the son of Samuel Kosminsky, one of the West End furriers. His uncle Martin has been mentioned a fair amount.

One of Scott Nelson's articles mentions Samuel and Martin.

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - The Polish Jew Suspect - Jewish Witness Connection: Some Further Speculations

Righto, Mr Palmer thanks for that

[rjpalmer]

I don't think it would be appreciably less surprising to learn that Tabram or Nichols were fornicating in the spots where they were found, as opposed to taking a nap.

[rjpalmer]

This could be the corner of Mitre Square.

Indeed it could be. And it looks like someone is sleeping there.

Here's another sleeper:



I am not defending Rubenhold per se, but my worry is that, in their zeal to dismiss her thesis as garbage, her critics are overstating their own assumptions as certainties.

Personally, although I don't accept many of her arguments, I think she is in the right ballpark psychologically.

I don't think the murderer is victimizing "prostitutes." He is victimizing middle-aged alcoholics who are out on the street at night. I doubt it mattered one iota to him if they were soliciting or merely wandering the streets.

[MrBarnett]

Someone completely out of their box on drugs who has collapsed in a heap and is lying unconscious where they fell is not a valid comparison. Kate was sober enough to convince the custody officer that it was safe to release her.

[MrBarnett]

This could be the corner of Mitre Square.

[MrBarnett]

No offense, but you clearly haven't visited Seattle or San Francisco recently!

Hallie is originally a Californian, I believe.

Out here, we see it. Even in drizzly Vancouver or Portlandia.

Downtown, it is not particularly unusual to have to step over the top of someone who is literally sprawled in the middle of the pavement.

She’s lying against the wall.

[rjpalmer]

If you Google ‘rough sleeper’, how many examples of people lying flat on their backs in the middle of a pavement do you find? None. They’re all tucked up in corners, doorways, benches etc.

No offense, but you clearly haven't visited Seattle or San Francisco recently!

Hallie is originally a Californian, I believe.

Out here, we see it. Even in drizzly Vancouver or Portlandia.

Downtown, it is not particularly unusual to have to step over the top of someone who is literally sprawled in the middle of the pavement.

[MrBarnett]

I’m reminded of the antics of blind Tommy Fogarty (Pearly Poll’s husband) here. On one occasion in Leman Street he asked if there was a policeman nearby and when he was told there was, he put his fist through a shop window. Why? I imagine because he preferred to spend a night in the cells than on the street.

[MrBarnett]

I do hope not, Gary.



Lie down, surely?

[shudder]

Whoever wrote that should be shot.

Love,

Caz
X

I was more upset by ‘cobblestones’. They were granite setts! ;-)

The implausibility of Kate asking to be released from a safe, dry and relatively comfortable police cell so she could trek to dark, damp and potentially dangerous Mitre Square and get her head down in the middle of the pavement for a few minutes before the next copper came along seems to have escaped Dr Bleakly.

If you Google ‘rough sleeper’, how many examples of people lying flat on their backs in the middle of a pavement do you find? None. They’re all tucked up in corners, doorways, benches etc.