Surgical knowledge?

[lynn cates]

Can the leaper change his spots?

Hello Tecs. Thanks.

Yes, I can understand how Baxter's theory was motivated. Along with the clean cuts, several indicators suggested a chap who knew what he was about.

And I agree that the uterus theory was not a massive leap in reasoning; however, it was a leap.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

object lesson

Hello (again) Tecs. Thanks.

"What do you propose did happen that is simpler?"

That he accomplished his object and left. The decapitation in Annie's case was not successful and so he abandoned it (possibly even thinking that he DID succeed at it).

Cheers.
LC

[Tecs]

Hello (again) Tecs. Thanks.

"What do you propose did happen that is simpler?"

That he accomplished his object and left. The decapitation in Annie's case was not successful and so he abandoned it (possibly even thinking that he DID succeed at it).

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Yes, all is possible.

Interestingly, in the one case where Peter Sutcliffe attempted to decapitate a victim he too didn't succeed. He admitted later that he wanted to leave the head somewhere like the side of a motorway just to confuse the police, in other words no deep pyschological reason just a killer "arseing around" if you'll excuse my language and unintentionally flippent words.

Then again, Sutcliffe is a complete liar from start to finish so you have to take everything he says with a dose of salts as Liz said in that excellent and factual drama Jack the Ripper featuring Michael Caine......

regards,

[lynn cates]

heads up

Hello Tecs. Thanks.

My lad reported that he was selling sheep entrails and heads at coffee shops. Now I recognise that sheep entrails go into haggis. But are you aware of any British dish that uses heads?

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Except that a warm body, possibly still breathing indicates that she has only just been killed/attacked.
Regards,

Hi, Tecs,
For awhile now, I have wondered about the "still breathing" assessment from Paul.

Could he not have been perhaps over excited at finding a dead body?

Or someone who was no good judge of such matters?

It is my understanding that bodies do sometime emit air or muscles may jerk a bit for sometime after death.

Isn't it possible this is what Paul was dealing with and not a woman so recently murdered?

It is a difference of a few minutes, but very important minutes.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

My lad reported that he was selling sheep entrails and heads at coffee shops. Now I recognise that sheep entrails go into haggis. But are you aware of any British dish that uses heads?

Hope this helps:

Sheep’s head dishes have an ancient pedigree and have had a particular association with the morning meal. They also have considerable “literary and political credentials.” (Hope 162)

In 1773, Dr. Johnson indignantly refused an offer of “some cold sheep-head for breakfast” on the Isle of Mull. His reaction delighted Boswell, who had encouraged their hostess in the offer from “a mischievous love of sport.” (Journey 406)

Enlightenment Edinburgh celebrated sheep’s head in both its rationalist and romantic phases. Ferguson wrote that “A gude sheep’s Heid/Wha’s hide was singeit, never fleed.” (that is, not ‘flayed,’ in other words cooked whole), and Burns did not confine his culinary odes to the haggis:

“O Lord, when hunger pinches sore
Do Thou stand us in stead

And send us, from thy bounteous store
A tup or wether head.”

-A Grace From the Globe Tavern, Dumfries, presumably for the table.

A ‘wether’ is a male sheep; ‘tup’ means ram. (dsl online) These enlightened sheep’s heads were served simply, garnished with carrot, onion and turnip, and napped with brain or parsley sauce after a long, slow simmer. (McNeill 184)

Powsowdie, or variously powtowdie or powsoudie, the traditional sheep’s head broth, was “the first Scottish dish encountered by the Wordsworths and Coleridge on their Scottish tour.” Dorothy Wordsworth wrote that they “ate heartily of it.” (Hope 162)

Sheep’s head continued to sustain the impecunious in the British Isles for centuries. In his poignant portraits of nine Chelsea Pensioners, Philip Ziegler describes the living conditions of one poor family with six children in Hampshire during the early twentieth century. He recounts circumstances of considerable deprivation and crowding but also notes that it “was a happy enough home.” (Soldiers 48-49) The family could not afford to buy fruit except perhaps for the odd orange at Christmastime, but like the urchins in Lark Rise, these siblings foraged the hedgerows and fields on their way home from school for berries, nuts and other wild foods. Potatoes were too expensive but their mother was both diligent and resourceful. She kept her children fed. “A cauldron of stew was almost always on the hob: a half sheep’s head provided its meager element of meat; Swedes, turnips and other root vegetables were added as they became available.” (Soldiers 48-49)

[Ben]

Hi Lynn,

Decapitation could be something new to such a one.

I'd be very surprised indeed if decapitation, or any other form of skeletal dismemberment, was anything new to a member of the butchering trade. I'd be equally surprised if any member of that trade should fail in their attempt at such a dismemberment, irrespective of how mad they were or how tangential it was to their main goal.

All the best,
Ben

[Tecs]

Hi, Tecs,
For awhile now, I have wondered about the "still breathing" assessment from Paul.

Could he not have been perhaps over excited at finding a dead body?

Or someone who was no good judge of such matters?

It is my understanding that bodies do sometime emit air or muscles may jerk a bit for sometime after death.

Isn't it possible this is what Paul was dealing with and not a woman so recently murdered?

It is a difference of a few minutes, but very important minutes.

Hi Curious,

Anything is possible but all of what you mention still points to somebody very recently dead ie maybe a couple of minutes. I agree totally that in the timescale we are talking about that actually amounts to a long time so who knows?

regards,

[Tecs]

Hello Tecs. Thanks.

My lad reported that he was selling sheep entrails and heads at coffee shops. Now I recognise that sheep entrails go into haggis. But are you aware of any British dish that uses heads?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I can't add much more than the top post on this page.

Sheeps heads were used for years but have pretty much gone out of fashion now. It's not that long ago that, probably through neccessity, people munched on whatever they could get hold of. (My Nan used to love munching on pigs trotters. Us younger generation thought it was disgusting!)

On this point though, didn't Isenschmidt go aroung selling dressed sheeps heads?

regards,

[Ben]

Hi Tecs,

Given the densely populated area, it isn't at all surprising that any murder committed on the street should be discovered shortly after the initial attack. The killer would certainly have been aware of this, and yet he spent precious time engaging in generalized stabbing of the genitalia ("meaningless cuts" as Baxter might describe them). If his goal was to extract the uterus for sale to a specimen-collecting doctor, he was going quite the wrong way about it.

Regards,
Ben

[Tecs]

Hi Tecs,

Given the densely populated area, it isn't at all surprising that any murder committed on the street should be discovered shortly after the initial attack. The killer would certainly have been aware of this, and yet he spent precious time engaging in generalized stabbing of the genitalia ("meaningless cuts" as Baxter might describe them). If his goal was to extract the uterus for sale to a specimen-collecting doctor, he was going quite the wrong way about it.

Regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

Very true, so how's about I throw this at you!

1. Ripper hears about samples of uterus being worth £20 from somewhere.
2. He thinks "Hmm, I've got a bit of surgical training (from wherever or whatever level it was)
3. He thinks, "No-one will miss one of those streetwalkers, I'll have one of their womb's and get myself out of this S**thole with the loot." (Good motive?)
4. Attacks Polly and stabs away ineptly. Stabs genitals (It's round here somewhere) cuts abdomen (ahah, here we go, oh s**t, who's that coming) and legs it.
5. Decides that if he is going to succeed he needs to do a bit more research and/or pick a more secluded spot.
6. Gens up somehow on removal of the uterus.
7. Attacks Annie and succeeds in gaining uterus.

As I always say, it's not impossible.

regards,

[Errata]

Hi Ben,

Very true, so how's about I throw this at you!

1. Ripper hears about samples of uterus being worth £20 from somewhere.
2. He thinks "Hmm, I've got a bit of surgical training (from wherever or whatever level it was)
3. He thinks, "No-one will miss one of those streetwalkers, I'll have one of their womb's and get myself out of this S**thole with the loot." (Good motive?)
4. Attacks Polly and stabs away ineptly. Stabs genitals (It's round here somewhere) cuts abdomen (ahah, here we go, oh s**t, who's that coming) and legs it.
5. Decides that if he is going to succeed he needs to do a bit more research and/or pick a more secluded spot.
6. Gens up somehow on removal of the uterus.
7. Attacks Annie and succeeds in gaining uterus.

As I always say, it's not impossible.

regards,

Wouldn't robbing or burglarizing one moderately successful person net someone just as much if not more money, and be far less personally dangerous? Even the murderers of whores hang.

And all things being equal, he has to have someone to sell the uteri to, and they either have to be known well enough to the murderer to not ask questions, or the killer has to come up with some reasonable provenance. Not to mention he has to invest in preserving equipment and the appropriate jars, seriously cutting into his profit.

I think that at best, he was going to kill them anyway, and he tried to get the uterus as just an added bonus. But even then, he still had to preserve it and sell it, and if he failed the first time, there is no reason for him to think that he would succeed a second.

[Wickerman]

In short, there is absolutely no reason to think that JTR had organ extraction as a preconceived agenda before he killed everyone, and certainly no good reason to think he was interrupted in Buck's Row.

Ben.
The killer chose to lacerate her abdomen for a reason.
Yes it could have been just random slashing, but, he would also need to lacerate her abdomen to extract an organ. Therefore, it cannot be ruled out that, as clumsy as he was, he intend to cut out an organ.
So, "absolutely no reason" in not true.
The very fact the long wound turns in different directions indicates an intended cut as opposed to a thoughtless 'slashing' action.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

cuisine and cookin'

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Hungry? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

real cut up

Hello Ben. Thanks. Of course, I disagree.

But I would be astonished if he failed in the usual cutting up of a journeyman.

Cheers.
LC