Surgical knowledge?

[lynn cates]

goal

Hello Mike. Thanks.

"If we assume that murder 1 and 2 were committed by the same person, which I do...and all of the Canonical believers also believe,..then either the killer acquired a taste for internal organs within 10 days, or the first kill wasnt representative of the killers ultimate goal."

One further assumption is required for this--you must assume that the killer had a goal.

I don't really make that assumption.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

instinctive

Hello (again) Mike.

"One presumes Mr Holmes that the killer sought to be sure he had severed both major arteries in the neck because it facilitated a very fast death and a rapid bleed out of the body. Which makes organ extracting and handling far easier."

Precisely. And I believe that this was nearly instinctive at this point in the assailant's life.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

assumptions

Hello (yet again) Mike. Milk? In a Darjeeling? Blasphemy.

At any rate, I think you can see why I am on about assumptions.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

delusions, etc.

Hello Lucky. Thanks.

"I'm agreeing that the usual theory 'no organs were removed, therefore the killer was interrupted' is an example of putting the cart before the horse."

Very well. It is indeed.

"Was there a dead body near every knackers-yard? or just the two closest to home perhaps?"

Very close to the murder sites, in fact.

"I think I agree, the horses would have been disemboweled at some point, but were they throttled first?"

Not at all. But when the ladies were throttled, I doubt the delusion was of an animal. Rather, it was of a wife who was perceived as thwarting the killer's object of getting a living.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

What pattern? If you don't mind my asking

Mr Holmes

I actually meant a physical pattern. Cuts on the left mirroring cuts on the right, horizontal cuts between the two sets of vertical cuts. It's not random. It's a pattern. There's a reason he cut that way, whether he meant to or not. Nichols had like, 20 times more injuries than Chapman had, but her organs weren't taken. But they could have been at any time. He had successfully opened her up, so it wasn't for lack of time or access. So how does a killer get from a dozen abdominal wounds to one big one and removing an organ? It's not the obvious next step. But for him it was. So assuming he didn't kill anyone in between Nichols and Chapman, Nichols had to be a step towards taking a uterus. Maybe after killing her he realized he could get it. Maybe she was a dry run, a way to practice and find out what works and what doesn't. It could be a lot of things. But Nichols certainly wasn't less mutilated than anyone else. I just think figuring out why he cut her just that way, and not randomly, would answer some questions.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Hello Mr. Holmes. Thanks.

No, not a ritual. One cut to bleed; one cut to decapitate.

Cheers.
LC

Oh but why decapitate? he'd had his "fun"

Mr Holmes

[Sherlock Holmes]

I actually meant a physical pattern. Cuts on the left mirroring cuts on the right, horizontal cuts between the two sets of vertical cuts. It's not random. It's a pattern. There's a reason he cut that way, whether he meant to or not. Nichols had like, 20 times more injuries than Chapman had, but her organs weren't taken. But they could have been at any time. He had successfully opened her up, so it wasn't for lack of time or access. So how does a killer get from a dozen abdominal wounds to one big one and removing an organ? It's not the obvious next step. But for him it was. So assuming he didn't kill anyone in between Nichols and Chapman, Nichols had to be a step towards taking a uterus. Maybe after killing her he realized he could get it. Maybe she was a dry run, a way to practice and find out what works and what doesn't. It could be a lot of things. But Nichols certainly wasn't less mutilated than anyone else. I just think figuring out why he cut her just that way, and not randomly, would answer some questions.

Interesting indeed a "dry run" as you put it would imply that these crimes were premeditated and not spur of the moment opportunistic crimes as I have seen suggested and i must confess once thought myself. Yes figuring out why he "did what he did" the way he did it would answer a lot of questions.

Mr Holmes

[lynn cates]

for sale

Hello Mr. Holmes. Thanks.

What fun?

In fact, when he described his activities to the police, he indicated he had been selling animal heads and entrails at market. Of course, he was delusional.

Cheers.
LC

[Sherlock Holmes]

Hello Mr. Holmes. Thanks.

What fun?

In fact, when he described his activities to the police, he indicated he had been selling animal heads and entrails at market. Of course, he was delusional.

Cheers.
LC

This fun. I believe the verse to be a genuine article

Eight little whores, with no hope of heaven,
Gladstone may save one, then there'll be seven.
Seven little whores beggin for a shilling,
One stays in Henage Court, then there's a killing.
Six little whores, glad to be alive,
One sidles up to Jack, then there are five.
Four and whore rhyme aright,
So do three and me,
I'll set the town alight
Ere there are two.
Two little whores, shivering with fright,
Seek a cosy doorway in the middle of the night.
Jack's knife flashes, then there's but one,
And the last one's the ripest for Jack's idea of fun.

Mr Holmes

[Wickerman]

This fun. I believe the verse to be a genuine article

I'm almost tempted to ask, on what grounds?, but its way off topic for this thread.

Regards, Jon S.

[Sherlock Holmes]

I'm almost tempted to ask, on what grounds?, but its way off topic for this thread.

Regards, Jon S.

It is not off topic in the slightest as it concerns a poem which alludes to some degree of surgical knowledge. We know that "The Ripper" was sick; possibly physically but more likely mentally. I don't know why anyone in their right mind would try to pull one over on the cops in such a macabre way. Therefore I conclude that the verse was/is genuine.

Mr Holmes

[Errata]

Interesting indeed a "dry run" as you put it would imply that these crimes were premeditated and not spur of the moment opportunistic crimes as I have seen suggested and i must confess once thought myself. Yes figuring out why he "did what he did" the way he did it would answer a lot of questions.

Mr Holmes

There's all kinds of patterns in the world. Sometimes they are the goal, sometimes the consequence. And sometimes just by products of natural law. When I walk down the stairs, I always down on the right til about halfway down, then switch to the left. That's my pattern. It isn't significant. The reason I do it is because I have this one overly optimistic cat who thinks I am going to feed her every time I go downstairs. She hugs the right wall, and usually catches up with me about halfway down, forcing me to move over or face an inglorious death. Now I just do it by habit. Going down stairs at the mall or something, it looks completely arbitrary, but there is a reason I do it.

Now, none of that matters in the slightest, but if I disappeared, and someone was looking at my muddy footprints going down the stairs, it would lead to some false assumptions, like that I had met someone on the stairs. But a dry run doesn't necessarily mean it was premeditated. it just means he was fully capable of taking advantage of the situation. He attacks, he kills, both of those actions can be pretty spontaneous. But the mutilations could have been planned, could have been goal oriented. I did improv theater for 15 years. And we had weekend rehearsals. I've practiced for any number of spontaneous events. I've taken first aid. I've in fact had to use mouth to mouth not long after getting certified, but I have yet to need CPR. But if someone drops in front of me, I'm ready. Fantasize about something enough, especially if you research it, and you don't need premeditation to pull it off. It just needs to occur to you.

[Sherlock Holmes]

There's all kinds of patterns in the world. Sometimes they are the goal, sometimes the consequence. And sometimes just by products of natural law. When I walk down the stairs, I always down on the right til about halfway down, then switch to the left. That's my pattern. It isn't significant. The reason I do it is because I have this one overly optimistic cat who thinks I am going to feed her every time I go downstairs. She hugs the right wall, and usually catches up with me about halfway down, forcing me to move over or face an inglorious death. Now I just do it by habit. Going down stairs at the mall or something, it looks completely arbitrary, but there is a reason I do it.

Now, none of that matters in the slightest, but if I disappeared, and someone was looking at my muddy footprints going down the stairs, it would lead to some false assumptions, like that I had met someone on the stairs. But a dry run doesn't necessarily mean it was premeditated. it just means he was fully capable of taking advantage of the situation. He attacks, he kills, both of those actions can be pretty spontaneous. But the mutilations could have been planned, could have been goal oriented. I did improv theater for 15 years. And we had weekend rehearsals. I've practiced for any number of spontaneous events. I've taken first aid. I've in fact had to use mouth to mouth not long after getting certified, but I have yet to need CPR. But if someone drops in front of me, I'm ready. Fantasize about something enough, especially if you research it, and you don't need premeditation to pull it off. It just needs to occur to you.

True but murder like that (with that degree of mutilation) would suggest that these were calculated and that the only thing spontaneous was the choice of victim (to me anyway).

Mr Holmes

[Wickerman]

It is not off topic in the slightest as it concerns a poem which alludes to some degree of surgical knowledge.

Well, if that's your justification for posting it then, ok, but, I'd be surprised if anyone else can see an allusion in McCormicks poem to surgical knowledge.

Therefore I conclude that the verse was/is genuine.

Provenance doesn't appear to be an issue with you then?

Regards, Jon S.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Wickerman what makes you so sure this McCormick wrote that verse? and explain provenance if you would be so kind

Mr Holmes