Surgical knowledge?

[Michael W Richards]

Errata,

It's possible that the liver was tugged free after being cut a bit. There are many interpretations possible. As an aside, I'm reminded of the apron that was "cut" away. Anyone who cuts fabric with the grain knows that once started with scissors, a cut is more of a tear than anything else. It looks nice and neat because it's going along the grain (not the correct word, but you understand). I believe so many doctors' and police interpretations are much like when two people watch a football game and one sees a foul and the other sees it differently. There is no truth to any of the autopsy reports except for an individual's truth which is almost always lacking for others.

Mike

Hi Mike,

There are reports that suggest the section was cut and torn free. I think one of the most relevant thoughts on the acquisition of the liver posted recently pondered why someone who knew what they were doing would'nt simply have flipped her over to access the organ. It appears to me the positioning of Kates body reflects the earlier murders where the pelvis and abdomen hold the killers attention, yet he botches a complete uterus removal, he sections her colon....introducing fecal matter into the mix, and if he intended to remove her nose completely he failed at that as well.

The upward cut is so roughly done in comparison with some of the earlier cases that it does not seem confidently made. As other cuts, on Annie for example, did.

Cheers

[Errata]

Hi Mike,

There are reports that suggest the section was cut and torn free. I think one of the most relevant thoughts on the acquisition of the liver posted recently pondered why someone who knew what they were doing would'nt simply have flipped her over to access the organ. It appears to me the positioning of Kates body reflects the earlier murders where the pelvis and abdomen hold the killers attention, yet he botches a complete uterus removal, he sections her colon....introducing fecal matter into the mix, and if he intended to remove her nose completely he failed at that as well.

The upward cut is so roughly done in comparison with some of the earlier cases that it does not seem confidently made. As other cuts, on Annie for example, did.

Cheers

I'm not sure he botched the uterine extraction. He might have, but women's anatomies vary considerably in that area. If she had a shorter cervix, or an inverted cervix, he may not have been able to take the cervix without risking the body of the uterus itself. Or he may have had no interest in the cervix at all. It's only botched if his idea of an intact uterus was the same as yours.

[Sherlock Holmes]

I'm not sure he botched the uterine extraction. He might have, but women's anatomies vary considerably in that area. If she had a shorter cervix, or an inverted cervix, he may not have been able to take the cervix without risking the body of the uterus itself. Or he may have had no interest in the cervix at all. It's only botched if his idea of an intact uterus was the same as yours.

The idea of the killer having had surgical knowledge was only ever put forward by one person, that person was Dr. Baxter- Philips, who made his examination of the body in the near darkness. Much like the Ripper's commission of the crime against Eddowes in the darkest corner of Mitre Square on the night of the night of the "double event" (Sept. 30 1888)

Regards
Mr Holmes

[packers stem]

The idea of the killer having had surgical knowledge was only ever put forward by one person, that person was Dr. Baxter- Philips, who made his examination of the body in the near darkness. Much like the Ripper's commission of the crime against Eddowes in the darkest corner of Mitre Square on the night of the night of the "double event" (Sept. 30 1888)

Regards
Mr Holmes

Hi Sherlock
It's very much backed up by ripperologists who are themselves surgeons that jtr not only displayed anatomical knowledge but indeed surgical skill.
I'm more than happy to bow to their expertise in this field as should all of us who are not surgeons ourselves. We've no real reason to doubt the experts

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Mike,

There are reports that suggest the section was cut and torn free. I think one of the most relevant thoughts on the acquisition of the liver posted recently pondered why someone who knew what they were doing would'nt simply have flipped her over to access the organ. It appears to me the positioning of Kates body reflects the earlier murders where the pelvis and abdomen hold the killers attention, yet he botches a complete uterus removal, he sections her colon....introducing fecal matter into the mix, and if he intended to remove her nose completely he failed at that as well.

The upward cut is so roughly done in comparison with some of the earlier cases that it does not seem confidently made. As other cuts, on Annie for example, did.

Cheers

The differences point to two different people removing the organs. The bodies of Eddowes and Chapman were taken to two different mortuaries

[Errata]

Hi Sherlock
It's very much backed up by ripperologists who are themselves surgeons that jtr not only displayed anatomical knowledge but indeed surgical skill.
I'm more than happy to bow to their expertise in this field as should all of us who are not surgeons ourselves. We've no real reason to doubt the experts

No reason to doubt, but also no reason to abandon our own judgement entirely. Is my considered opinion on kidney extraction as good as a surgeons? Absolutely not. But my grandfather built helicopters with a fourth grade education and the only mechanical training he had was on a farm. The man had a gift. And anyone would swear that what he built was made by an engineer, but he wasn't one. And I'm not saying that's what happened here, but it does happen. Skills are rarely unique to one trade, savants pop up occasionally, and there are those who can replicate what they have only observed. And sometimes people assign significance to accident.

Do I believe a surgeon who says he sees surgical skill? I believe he sees it. And that has significance to me. Do I take that as gospel truth? No. Anymore than I would expect someone to take my analyses on mental health or knife use as gospel truth. We don't know. We are all giving it our best guess. And many of them are very good guesses. But still guesses.

[packers stem]

No reason to doubt, but also no reason to abandon our own judgement entirely. Is my considered opinion on kidney extraction as good as a surgeons? Absolutely not. But my grandfather built helicopters with a fourth grade education and the only mechanical training he had was on a farm. The man had a gift. And anyone would swear that what he built was made by an engineer, but he wasn't one. And I'm not saying that's what happened here, but it does happen. Skills are rarely unique to one trade, savants pop up occasionally, and there are those who can replicate what they have only observed. And sometimes people assign significance to accident.

Do I believe a surgeon who says he sees surgical skill? I believe he sees it. And that has significance to me. Do I take that as gospel truth? No. Anymore than I would expect someone to take my analyses on mental health or knife use as gospel truth. We don't know. We are all giving it our best guess. And many of them are very good guesses. But still guesses.

Hi errata
I'd say yes and no.There are some things in life you can build up a skill with practice and that would be the case with your grandfather being 'self taught' which can happen.Your grandfather clearly made himself into an engineer over time same as non music reading Lennon and McCartney made themselves into fine musicians over time.It's about practice.
There's a difference when you talk about practising and self teaching on a human body I would say.
For me the likelihood is that surgical skill was shown rather than anything else

[DJA]

Reckon it's both.

[John G]

Even modern experts are divided on this issue: Dr Biggs, a forensic pathologists didn't believe that the perpetrator exhibited any surgical skill, for instance. Mind you, one of my favourite suspects, Francis Thompson, trained for 6 years as a surgeon, so maybe I should be in the "yes" camp!

[pinkmoon]

Whoever our killer was he knew how to kill quickly and efficiently of that there is no doubt.