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  • #46
    The fact that the cervix was removed uninjured was noted as a factor in the assessment of Chapman's pelvic injuries, as was it being left behind so noted by Brown pertaining to Eddowes' extractions.

    Bottom line is that with the Eddowes murder, a re-assessment of Baxter's theory was made and rebuffed. Baxter was not about to admit he could have been wrong, so he implied that Eddowes was murdered by an imitator. She may or may not have been. If she was, her killer had to have acquired some anatomical knowledge and it was a helluva risk to take and required a mind as demented as the one who killed Chapman to do this and take those risks. This wasn't the Gateshead murder where Waddell had every chance to not be disturbed and he simply butchered his former paramour.

    Although Mike referred to Chapman, instead of Nichols - as he was asked about Nichols by Lynn - there is no physical evidence that an attempt was made to extract Mary Nichols' uterus. She was simply mutilated.

    No real medical assessment could be made as to the skill or lack of in any of these murders under the conditions they were perpetrated and where the real intent of the murderer was unknown.This is where Phillips fell short. He understandably saw some indications that may have been overexemplified while trying to find something logical to explain what he witnessed. But for some reason the uterus was extracted in three of these murders and some anatomical knowledge was necessary in all three for this very unique organ to be removed. How it was extracted- whether complete or incomplete - is not as important as the fact that each of these women's murderer knew what it was, where it was and held it to some degree of importance.
    Best Wishes,
    Hunter
    ____________________________________________

    When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888

    Comment


    • #47
      Polly

      Hello Cris.

      "there is no physical evidence that an attempt was made to extract Mary Nichols' uterus. She was simply mutilated."

      Completely agree. Nor am I one to entertain interruption theories--not Polly, not Liz.

      Cheers.
      LC

      Comment


      • #48
        Hi Lynn

        As regards Polly I'm totally in agreement with you, feeling as I do that her TOD was a tad earlier than some commentators would have us believe...With Liz I'm a little less sure, but still prepared to listen...I suppose it depends on who was Schwartz's interpreter...there's this interesting chap listed as such who was deported in 1917...

        All the best

        Dave

        Comment


        • #49
          early

          Hello Dave. Thanks. I think both were a tad earlier than the standard theory accepts--maybe 10-15 minutes.

          Cheers.
          LC

          Comment


          • #50
            Hi Lynn

            You'll doubtless get a little (!) disagreement from some quarters, but not from me mate!

            All the best

            Dave

            Comment


            • #51
              disagreement

              Hi Lynn

              'Dr Llewellyn, 152 Whitechapel road, he arrived quickly and pronounced life to be extinct, apparently but a few minutes'

              Inspector Spratling's report 31/8/1888

              Comment


              • #52
                Hi Mr Lucky

                But of course the debate (as expressed elsewhere at great length) is, in part at least, what time the good doctor was knocked up, what time he was actually aroused, what time he left the house, and what time he arrived at the crime scene...regardless of all of our honestly held reservations regarding LVP timekeeping...(sigh)

                Thanks

                Dave

                Comment


                • #53
                  a few minutes

                  Hello Lucky. Thanks. And a few minutes means . . . ?

                  Cheers.
                  LC

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Cogidubnus View Post
                    Hi Mr Lucky

                    But of course the debate (as expressed elsewhere at great length) is, in part at least, what time the good doctor was knocked up, what time he was actually aroused, what time he left the house, and what time he arrived at the crime scene...regardless of all of our honestly held reservations regarding LVP timekeeping...(sigh)

                    Thanks

                    Dave
                    Yes, this is the post that makes me a believer of the statement that Britain and America are separated by a common language. Sometimes the differences in idioms just smack you in the face.
                    The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I have to confess I smiled when I typed in "knocked up" and "actually aroused"...I swear it's so!...

                      All the best

                      Dave

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        I think one of the problems with the idea that Jack graduated from a Nichols like mutilation to Chapman is both the steep learning curve, and the total lack of association. There's just nothing about Nichols mutilation that would lead anyone to believe that he was going to escalate to taking organs. It would make sense if he had laid her open, and had seen the uterus, and then came to the conclusion that he wanted one. Or if he had been going for the uterus, and just failed for some reason. But going from simply wanting to mutilate the abdomen to wanting a uterus, and successfully getting one the first time he tried for it is a Grand Canyon sized leap.

                        The wounds on Polly Nichols sound to me like a sampler. It's like a display of all of the skills he learned, but nowhere near the complexity of a finished piece. There were slashes, stabbing slashes, slices, vertical, horizontal, deep shallow, ragged, fine... but nothing patterned and nothing complicated. Almost like he's taking a human body for a test drive. But with Chapman, that's a finished piece. The elaborate pillow to his sampler (just to make the analogy even more peculiar). But what that would mean is that he didn't exactly have knowledge, and didn't have surgical skill or knife experience. But he did it in his head so many times that after he found out how a human body reacted to the various cuts, he could go ahead. It would mean lightening fast skill acquisition based on very little practical experience and being frighteningly bright. He didn't have to be smart or educated. He just had to be scary bright. But I don't know that he was.
                        The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          That is a good post, Errata... and if we are to delve into theories here ( and this series of historical events are ripe for them) we can surmise a sense of progression, starting with Tabram in some respects - maybe even earlier. Attacks that see stabbing at the female genitalia - a frenzy of uncontrolled furor - then escalating into more substantial evisceration of the essence of womanhood. And in the end, a virtual lashing out at the person being even human by total annihilation and placement of organs in an almost ritualistic fashion. If there ever was a 'Jack the Ripper,' this was him.

                          Ironically, it was a person in a Trevor Marriott documentary, a criminal psychologist, Thomas Mueller - who Trevor admits he did not entertain being in the doc - who offered a poignant insight into this type of killer... if we are to entertain the notion of a serial killer here. He fantacises... and the fantasies are his fuel. Each experience promulgates more fantasies that take it a step farther. Its almost like a dress rehearsal that is played over and over in his mind until he is able to act it out in reality; a new dimension added each time. He can do what he does because he has rehearsed it in his mind... thought each sequence out, elevating from the previous experience to add that new dimension for heightened gratification.

                          Something else may have happened, of course, with more than one killer involved... its possible. But everything that has been learned over the past 125 years has not diminished what Mueller was talking about, and how someone could do this and get away with it. Its the most difficult type of crime to solve even now. People like this confide in no one. Its personal on a level that only one individual - the killer - can even relate. He learns what is necessary to act upon those fantasies. He doesn't have to be trained in a profession or a trade to do so. He trains himself out of the motivation that drives him.

                          In 1888, they may have had little chance outside of actually catching the perpetrator in the act... which they didn't.
                          Best Wishes,
                          Hunter
                          ____________________________________________

                          When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Cogidubnus View Post
                            Hi Mr Lucky

                            But of course the debate (as expressed elsewhere at great length) is, in part at least, what time the good doctor was knocked up, what time he was actually aroused, what time he left the house, and what time he arrived at the crime scene...regardless of all of our honestly held reservations regarding LVP timekeeping...(sigh)
                            There isn't much to debate, he arrived quickly and the woman had been dead a few minutes.

                            That's independent of whether he was knocked up or the accuracy of victorian clocks ect, he arrived quickly and life was 'extinct but a few minutes.'(sigh)

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
                              Hello Lucky. Thanks. And a few minutes means . . . ?

                              Cheers.
                              LC
                              I don't Know Lynn, I'm not the one trying to move her TOD.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                T O D

                                Hello Lucky. Thanks.

                                I have no desire to move it either. She died around 3.30. End of story.

                                Cheers.
                                LC

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