A Hypothetical Question.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi NBFN,

Just to clarify, what was Diemschutz's reason for inventing his pony? How did that specific detail benefit the club conspiracy?

Just to be clear, my theory does not involve the club membership in general, nor is it the same as MWR's theory.
Take Kozebrodsky for example - he claimed to be called down by Diemschutz at 12:40. Clearly he doesn't know to say 'about 1 am'.
Also, I do think this is a Ripper murder - the Eddowes murder was not just some 'happy' coincidence, that took the focus and heat off the club.

I get your arguments in favour of his timing being off, potential reasons to cover for his mate Schwartz etc, but, given that he stabled his pony at George Yard, it would be reasonable to assume that's where it actually was if he didn't ride it into Dutfields Yard. So why not just say he arrived on foot?

For the reason that all the intro books and docos give - the sound of the pony and cart alerts the Ripper, who then 'jumps back into the shadows'.
Sans the pony and cart, someone like Louis has to walk into the yard and catch the Ripper in the act. How will it be explained what happens then?
I will gather the quotes together soon, but Diemschutz is very quick to sell the idea that the sounds of pony and cart were what made Jack flee, after briefly hiding somewhere. The suggestible Fanny Mortimer agrees with Louis' hypothesis.
The pony and cart story is really a fantastic idea, because arriving home late from the markets, on a Sat/Sun night, is what Louis normally does.

If he invented the pony, and told the police he arrived on it, but it wasn't actually in evidence, would it not be a totally needless risk to lie about it, given that a PC could spot the deception and become suspicious?

Good question.
It is possible that Louis may have arrived much earlier than claimed, and that the pony and cart are parked at the back of the yard.
On the other hand, Lamb and Phillips searched that area, and curiously found a pile of dung, but no pony or cart (at least they make no mention of it).
The great thing about stabling the pony somewhere else, is that Diemschutz potentially has an 'out' - as in, 'someone must have taken it back there', or 'I forgot that I'd asked comrade X to take it there'.
Re the PC's - they possibly had no knowledge of the pony and cart, on the night. Not just of the story Diemschutz gave at the inquest, but their actual existence. Did Louis give a statement on the night?
Also critical, is the fact that the police seem to have not attended the inquest on day 1, when Diemschutz gives his testimony.

I'm not saying he didn't lie, but if he did, how was that going to benefit anyone?

Mainly due to the 12:45 time given by Schwartz, versus the 1:00 time give by Louis.
The discrepancy helps to validate Schwartz account, in which he appears to witness a 'domestic', but which, unknown to him, turns out far worse.
Without the 15 minute gap, Schwartz is running away from a murder scene, at the approximate time of the murder.
In turn, Schwartz' statement helps to make Louis account, believable.
The two accounts 'work off' each other, but in that sense they introduce an element of circular reasoning.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

There is mention of a cart and horse on that street by the club just after 1am. There is not when the authorities were there, nor I believe does any club attendee mention it. Therefore I submit what Fanny heard just after 1 was the cart and horse being taken to where they were kept, George Yard, just after 1am, and before the authorities get there. Its not reasonable that the cart and horse that Fanny heard is yet another cart and horse on that at street by that address at that time. The street had been essentially deserted since 12:35, and Fanny was at her door until 1. She didn't see any cart and horse.

So did Spooner mention, that while he was standing guard over the body, waiting for police to arrive, everyone having to press up against the opposite wall, while the pony and cart were carefully driven back though the gates, in near darkness, after being U-turned in the back yard?

Did Louis ask for this to be done?

Why did Louis state that the pony was left just outside the (side) club door, and not mention that he authorized its subsequent movement?

Did Louis not take it himself, because he was keen to hang around and tell the authorities his whip and prod and match and candle story?

Why bother taking it out of the yard, rather than just leaving it down the back?

Were Louis' wares removed before the pony and cart left with some unknown driver?

What time did Lamb and Collins arrive?

At what time could Smith see the crowd outside the gates?

Did Smith see the pony and cart leave?

I suspect Fanny missed Louis's arrival at around 12:40 because at that time she was visiting her door sporadically, she didn't remain continuously at the door until 12:50. Until 1.

You keep mentioning this 12:50-1:00 period.

Please provide a quote that supports your assertion that Fanny was continuously at her door in this period.

Please explain why Fanny is quoted as hearing a commotion (in one quote), and cries for police (in another).

She is only reported as hearing a pony and cart.

Please explain why the report is given higher status that the direct quote.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Mystery over.

So you're happy with a solution that has Diemschutz arriving at the yard, 5 minutes before Schwartz enters Berner street?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Let put it this way...when Louis arrives and his pony shies, he may have continued through to the yard where he could circle the cart and pony round to take it back out. This yard had stables, unused stables, but surely enough room to turn around a small cart and pony. They did it when they manufactured sacks there.

Back out to where? Berner St? Cable St?

Did he first discover the body, then deal with the pony and cart, then let other club members know about the dead body?

Why not just leave the pony and cart out the back, and deal with it at a more appropriate time?

Better still, why not leave the pony and cart where he said he did, and leave it to Ripperologists to wonder why no one runs into, trips over, complains about or even mentions the proximity of the cart to the body, in near darkness?

Fanny goes to her door at 12:50...sees no-one on the street. Sees no-one arriving. Sees Goldstein as he walks past the gates around 12:55...he looks in and keeps going. Likely waved off by people around the body.

What's your evidence that Fanny sees no one on the street, or arriving at the club?

Prior to the discovery of the body, how many times does Fanny see Goldstein, that night?

Fanny goes indoors at 1 and a few minutes later hears the cart and horse leaving. Louis and some others now formally head out for the police, its just after 1. Fanny after hearing some hullabaloo comes back to her door and goes to the gates.

Doesn't Fanny go out to the gates, shortly after hearing a commotion and/or cries for police, or does she hear that shortly after she hears the pony and cart, which was shortly after she goes back inside? In other words, are we talking 'shortly after', or 'shortly after, shortly after'?

That works for me anyway. And it means...Louis lied about what time he arrived, and punctuated with "precisely", none of the club staff report the fact that the men Spooner saw were not Louis and Issac[s] as is generally presumed, and Fanny didn't hear the cart arrive, but rather the opposite. It also means that the event that Israel later adds to the mix either did not occur at all, or that it happened in a different spot and at a different time.

Maybe Israel was more tipsy than tipsy man, and forgot what street he lived in?

Since this all takes place close to the time Liz is cut, I would suggest Liz and her killer could have been seen from someone inside the passageway leaving through the gates, anytime after she disappears from sight around 12:35. Meaning...Israel could have seen Liz struggling with someone inside the gates and walked past them out into the street at around 12:35-12:40. Which is when Louis pulls up. Bad Guy cuts Liz, and slips by Louis into the street and away, or goes further into the passageway or into the club. That Bad Guy could well be the man Israel claims followed him.

So Schwartz didn't sprint away for half a mile, because he was involved in something nefarious and someone had seen him. No - he ran away because he was desperately unlucky to have walked by the gates just when that Bad Guy cuts Liz, who sees Schwartz and chases him off.

Brilliant. Now please explain the sheer coincidence of Schwartz having access to an empty residence, on the night of the double event, yet only being an innocent witness.

If that sighting happened the way and place and time I suggest, then the story Israel later gives cannot be seen as anything but an attempt to take this events start onto the street and off the property, presumably to protect the club. BSM is actually Bad Guy in passageway.

So the purpose of Schwartz lying, was to protect the club by pointing out that he first spots Liz standing just outside the gates, rather than just inside, and that is enough to keep the club in the clear?

[JeffHamm]

Aside from the fact that I said 'the pony and cart effectively cease to exist', this is another 'just because' response.
The cart is in the way. The cart is in the darkness.
I cover this in detail in this post.
The fact that a pony and cart were an everyday thing, does not make the issue go away.

Well, effectively cease to exist makes no sense, either the cart exists or it does not, it cannot exist but act as if it does not. It can, however, cease to be mentioned in the testimony, and if that's what you mean, then you agree with me.

Not sure what a "just because" response is either, but I have no idea where the pony and cart ended up because it's not mentioned after Deimshutz's arrival. I threw out a few examples of places it could be, but to list them all would be unnecessarily tedious simply to show that it could be anywhere because we do not have evidence as to where it ended up. But to conclude it wasn't there at all simply because it isn't mentioned is an erroneous inference - it's mistaking absence of evidence for evidence of absence. That was the point.

- Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

Also critical, is the fact that the police seem to have not attended the inquest on day 1, when Diemschutz gives his testimony.

"Yesterday, at the Vestry Hall in Cable-street, St. George-in-the-East, Mr. Wynne E. Baxter, coroner for East Middlesex, opened an inquest on the body of the woman who was found dead, with her throat cut, at one o'clock on Sunday morning, in Berner-street, Commercial-road East. At the outset of the inquiry the deceased was described as Elizabeth Stride, but it subsequently transpired that she had not yet been really identified. A jury of twenty-four having been empanelled, they proceeded to view the body at the St. George's Mortuary.

Detective-Inspector Reid, H Division, watched the case on behalf of the police."

[DJA]

There is a thread already dedicated to Louis's pony and cart, why is this thread being taken over with it?

There are two.

Both started by the same poster that has been allowed to cross thread this one.

[Michael W Richards]

You keep mentioning this 12:50-1:00 period.

Please provide a quote that supports your assertion that Fanny was continuously at her door in this period.

You know you very often ask for verification of something that can be verified by yourself with very few clicks. I wont bother with the other questions because they are not answerable with known evidence.

[Michael W Richards]

"Yesterday, at the Vestry Hall in Cable-street, St. George-in-the-East, Mr. Wynne E. Baxter, coroner for East Middlesex, opened an inquest on the body of the woman who was found dead, with her throat cut, at one o'clock on Sunday morning, in Berner-street, Commercial-road East. At the outset of the inquiry the deceased was described as Elizabeth Stride, but it subsequently transpired that she had not yet been really identified. A jury of twenty-four having been empanelled, they proceeded to view the body at the St. George's Mortuary.

Detective-Inspector Reid, H Division, watched the case on behalf of the police."

Hi Josh, Its funny that they did actually know it was Liz Stride at that time, and yet still allowed Mary Malcom lots of time to submit her story about her sister...which they knew wasn't the woman they found.

[Losmandris]

Back to this thread.......

I would ask the police to start interviewing the local prostitutes asking about any particularly weird clients or any displaying some particularly bizarre behaviour. The murderer must have had some abortive attempts before some of the murders.

Tristan

[Michael W Richards]

Back to this thread.......

I would ask the police to start interviewing the local prostitutes asking about any particularly weird clients or any displaying some particularly bizarre behaviour. The murderer must have had some abortive attempts before some of the murders.

Tristan

He might not mingle with them much Tristan, I think one of his strategies was to attack women that did not know him, women who were strangers. Too many stalled attempts on the same streets wouldn't allow that. I go back to my suggestion of funneling street traffic through checkpoints. If, after Annie they saw the real possibility they were going to see more of them, they had set up checkpoints throughout the East End, closing lanes where needed, funneling all pedestrians past a constable asking some quick questions, I think then it wouldn't matter whether or not Jack the Ripper was to kill 3 more victims or it was another killer or killers, the murders would likely have ended for the time being.

It would be much better if one had this opportunity to try and save all the women we know will be murdered, and a shame to not be able to save some in order to save others. But I think that's a more probable outcome. It would be hard without being able to provide any information to the police about what and when and possibly who...as the thread premise is..... to save them all. And as for my suggestion, it would only work at a point in time when the police might have cause to consider such an option. That would be once they know for sure that something wicked has this way come. That means that some people will still die. Its hard to imagine a premise that doesn't have some idea how to prevent the series from happening at all as being acceptable, but maybe theres always a cost.