A Whip and a Prod

[Wickerman]

Re the Schwartz interview with The Star



Why has Schwartz gone out for the day (a Saturday), when on that day his wife is expecting to move from their shared address, to another address?

After midnight, he still doesn't know if she has moved, so he sets off for the first address to see if she is still there. Weird!

In case I'm missing a part of the know picture, Schwartz' behavior surely indicates a big problem with the marriage.

We are talking about a time when the man was expected to go out to work while the woman looked after the home. Younger generations today might not appreciate that. The times were different, it doesn't mean anything was amiss.

[Michael W Richards]

Re the Schwartz interview with The Star



Why has Schwartz gone out for the day (a Saturday), when on that day his wife is expecting to move from their shared address, to another address?

After midnight, he still doesn't know if she has moved, so he sets off for the first address to see if she is still there. Weird!

In case I'm missing a part of the know picture, Schwartz' behavior surely indicates a big problem with the marriage.

Couple of responses, Ive looked through some old Stride threads for that timeline one, cant recall if it was Gen Discussion or Stride...or even a Locations posting. Ill poke around a bit for it, it can be recreated pretty easily though. Take all the statements, chart them. See what happens. You cannot use them all, that's the first thing youll find.

On the above, that is for me the weakest part of his story, someone like him would have very little in the way of belongings...immigrant, small cramped spaces to live in, I would think rentals like Marys room most places would have a ramshackle bed and a chair. So she would likely have been moving clothes, maybe some dishes. He left her 12 hours earlier, moving from what precise address we do not know, to move a small amount of goods.

Now its just after a large meeting had ended outside a club that was likely full of immigrants Jews just like him..just happening to be passing by, in time to see a soon to be murder victim being accosted. Coincidental timing all over the place there.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Although the Telegraph reported Louis as saying "I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street", the Daily News says "I noticed the time at a tobacco shop in the Commercial-road", with the Morning Advertiser even going as far as saying "I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street"

Harris' shop was at 84 on the NE corner. There was another tobacco shop at no.80, next door to the shop on the NW corner. So therefore, if correct, Louis did indeed pass Fanny at no.36 before entering the club gateway. It seems possible to me that the confusion may have arisen if Louis had actually said "'baccy shop" rather than "baker's shop".

Are all 3 quotes based on inquest testimony?

The East London Observer (Oct 6):

Lewis Dienischitz [Diemschutz], who is the steward of the club, found the body, and this is his version of the discovery:
"On Saturday," he says, "I left home about half-past eleven in the morning and returned home exactly at one a.m. Sunday morning. I noticed the time at a tobacco shop in the Commercial-road. I was driving a pony harnessed to a costermonger's barrow. I do not keep the pony in the yard of the club, but in George-yard, Cable-street. I drove the barrow home in order to leave my goods there. I drove into the yard. Both gates were open - wide open. It was rather dark there. I drove it in as usual, but as I came into the gate my pony shied to the left, and that made me look at the ground to see what the cause of it was. I could see that there was something unusual on the pavement, but I could not see what it was. It was a dark object. I tried to feel it with the handle of my whip to discover what it was. I tried to lift it up with it. As I could not I jumped down at once and struck a match. It was rather windy, and I could not get a light sufficient to show that it was the figure of some person, whom by the dress I knew to be a woman. I took no further notice of it, but went into the club and asked where my missus was."

That sounds quite different to the Daily Telegraph inquest text (Oct 2):

On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street. I had been to the market near the Crystal Palace, and had a barrow like a costermonger's, drawn by a pony, which I keep in George-yard Cable-street. I drove home to leave my goods. I drove into the yard, both gates being wide open. It was rather dark there. All at once my pony shied at some object on the right. I looked to see what the object was, and observed that there was something unusual, but could not tell what. It was a dark object. I put my whip handle to it, and tried to lift it up, but as I did not succeed I jumped down from my barrow and struck a match. It was rather windy, and I could only get sufficient light to see that there was some figure there. I could tell from the dress that it was the figure of a woman.
[Coroner] You did not disturb it? - No. I went into the club and asked where my wife was.

Is the ELO quote actually based on an interview, rather than the inquest?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Re the Schwartz interview with The Star

It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane. When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved.

Why has Schwartz gone out for the day (a Saturday), when on that day his wife is expecting to move from their shared address, to another address?

After midnight, he still doesn't know if she has moved, so he sets off for the first address to see if she is still there. Weird!

In case I'm missing a part of the know picture, Schwartz' behavior surely indicates a big problem with the marriage.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Not be blamed, I appreciate you taking the time to dissect what was said to see how it fits with the overall scheme of things. As you've noted, there are some discrepancies that cannot be reconciled by changing a few minutes here or there, and some claims that directly contradict others who are establishing the timelines that people are still using. I made a timeline post years back here, with every sighting and event claimed from 12:35 until just after 1am. The times given and the stories given do not marry, they contrast, the do not fit together.

Thanks Michael.
Find me that timeline post if you can, please.
I just read an interesting post by yourself, from '13.

[Michael W Richards]

Not be blamed, I appreciate you taking the time to dissect what was said to see how it fits with the overall scheme of things. As you've noted, there are some discrepancies that cannot be reconciled by changing a few minutes here or there, and some claims that directly contradict others who are establishing the timelines that people are still using. I made a timeline post years back here, with every sighting and event claimed from 12:35 until just after 1am. The times given and the stories given do not marry, they contrast, the do not fit together.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

>> ... how long after hearing the pony and cart, does the commotion occur?<<

"I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife."
Fanny Mortimer

Seeing 2 or 3 people in the gateway, when exiting No 36, is exactly what one would suppose to be the case, if there were a commotion caused by people gathering around a body laying about 5 to 10ft inside the gates.
The other 7 or 8 (or more) are within the lane, and not visible from outside No 36.
Simple. However, this occurs, according to the direct quote from Fanny "just after one o'clock".
From the point in time that Diemschutz supposedly sees the street clock - exactly 1:00 - several things must occur before 10 or more people are around the body, including Louis, and immediately after, Fanny.
One of these things is ...

[Coroner] Did you touch the body?
[Diemschutz] No, I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased. As he lifted it up I saw the wound in the throat.

How did Louis get back from his excursion so soon?
He didn't strike the match until 1:01, and yet here he is at 1:03, back at the body after two trips away from it. Amazing!

Perhaps Louis actually first reached the body at closer to 12:55?
You know, when Fanny was on her doorstep. No?

>> What do you suppose Fanny meant when she used the word 'commotion'?<<

"I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door... "
Fanny Mortimer

So again, this is the commotion scenario, except now defined by calls for police, rather the noise of the hubbub around the body.
This occurs just after 1:00. Fine.
So when does the pony and cart go by?
Around 1:04, or a couple of minutes before she hears the calls, when she was just ending her doorstep vigil?
Or was it more than a couple of minutes before, given that multiple people set off for police at different times, and in opposite directions?
Louis actually said he didn't call out until he had already been searching without success.
Maybe then, it was whoever went toward Commercial Rd (and therefore past Fanny's place)? So what time was that?

PC Lamb: Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting. I went to meet them, and they called out, "Come on, there has been another murder." I asked where, and as they got to the corner of Berner-street they pointed down and said, "There." I saw people moving some distance down the street.

Shortly before 1:00? That can't be right!
It's not as though Lamb would have been in sight of at least one clock on Commercial Rd, is it?
So anyway, what about the people Lamb could see at the gates, several times further way from them than Fanny was at No 36?
Is this the commotion Fanny speaks of? Surely not! Lamb must have the time wrong!
So why did PC Smith say he never heard cries of "police!", when on Commercial Rd at 1:00?
Was it because Lamb and Collins had already heard the cries, seen the men, and made it to No 40?
Or did Smith also get the time badly wrong?

>> Is Fanny still preparing for bed by this point, or has she tucked in?<<

"I was just about going to bed,"
Fanny Mortimer

... when I heard a pony and cart go by, or was it ?...

The essence of the issue is:

1. Fanny's direct quote is incompatible with the described statement
2. The direct quote should be preferred, because it is a direct quote, and not an interpretation, and because it jibes better with the times given in other witness statements, and is therefore more likely to be accurate.
3. A consequence of accepting #2, is that the idea of Louis' pony and cart entering Dutfield's Yard, on or after 1 am, becomes tenuous at best

[JeffHamm]

>>Oh, do you have a source for that? I've not spotted Anderson's statement on this before.<<

Ultimate jtr, page 127.

Brilliant. I've overlooked that, obviously, as I've gone through the Ultimate a few times (which is where the Warren letter comes from). I'll have to check that out once I get back (I'm in London at the moment, so don't have my books with me).

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

Ok, lets take a few individuals on for the moment....

1:02 - Hears a commotion outside, and goes outside to see
1:03 - Joins the growing crowd of people around the body
1:04 - Hears Diemschutz' pony and cart pass her place

There is nothing in any statement that identifies Louis's cart and horse as the one she hears, she does not see it nor the direction it came from. It was her guess. Ergo, she was indoors. As she says. I suspect she heard the cart and horse being taken away if anything.

Okay, so what happens next?
Does she and everyone else in the lane, cooperatively line up single file along the wall opposite the club, to allow Louis to drive in and discover the body?

The body has been discovered, at what time is a big question, but the cart and horse she hears isn't related to the passageway at this point, it may well have been leaving. That's when she goes out, is with the others around thee body, and if there is a minute or 2 out in either story it doesn't really factor in here, Louis did not arrive at 1 as per Fanny, and she only heard a cart and horse shortly after going in at 1.

In the first quote, at what time, or how long after hearing the pony and cart, does the commotion occur?

The commotion might have been a bunch of club attendees standing around using hushed voices, so who knows when they were actually aware of and around the dying woman. 4 people say that was 12:45

What do you suppose Fanny meant when she used the word 'commotion'?

When you have a bunch of people muttering there it seems an appropriate term.

Ill get back to you on the rest shortly, at work right now.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Not only does Schwartz fail to make any pro club/Jewish statement to Abberline, given the golden opportunity to spread a conspiracy story to the wider public via the Star, he fails to make any mention of a "Lipski" exclamation in that article.

It's not even obvious which of the two men would have said 'Lipski', even if one of them had done so.

Not only must we be aware that Schwartz' testimony has gone through interpreter to Abberline to Swanson, before it reaches us, we also have to remember that, during the incident, Schwartz was listening in Hungarian (so to speak), whereas the speakers were talking in English (we presume).

When we compare The Star quote to the official account, and see how much difference there is between the two, it is far from outlandish to suppose something like this was shouted:

knifeman (Irish accent): Let go!

The Hungarian hears "Lipski!".

I would suggest that the probability of the word 'Lipski' having being spoken in that incident, is no more than 50%, and probably less.
The probability of the woman in the incident being Liz Stride, is higher, but by no means 100%.
Why do people regard the identity of this woman as being Liz, to be a definitely ascertained fact, when we are dealing with a problematic eyewitness account, regarding a nighttime event?
To put it bluntly, all the debate about who stood where, who moved where and when they did, who was pushed or pulled, who was frightened off or appeared to be behaving with intent, is pretty much a waste of time.
As for Schwartz' supposed identification of Stride at the mortuary, I find this difficult to take seriously.
Did he ever have a non-obstructed frontal view of her face, for more than a few tenths of a second, while she was standing relatively still and under reasonably strong and even lighting? Probably not!

[drstrange169]

>> ... how long after hearing the pony and cart, does the commotion occur?<<

"I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife."
Fanny Mortimer



>> What do you suppose Fanny meant when she used the word 'commotion'?<<

"I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door... "
Fanny Mortimer



>> Is Fanny still preparing for bed by this point, or has she tucked in?<<

"I was just about going to bed,"
Fanny Mortimer

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Her vigil started at 12:45 until 1am, using Fannys own words, "nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock" and she did not see or hear a cart during that time, and only heard that noise when she was back in her house. After 1. " Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

She stood at her door until 1, she went back in, after a few minutes, she guesses 4, heard the cart and horse. We do not know which direction it travelled.

Fine, you win - she hears the pony and cart at about 1:04 (I guess her clock must have been 'fast', or the tower clock 'slow').
However, your exclusive focus on the first quote and particular focus on the bold text, indicates you are missing the point completely.
Let's create a timeline of events, from Fanny's point of view, using both quotes ...

1:02 - Hears a commotion outside, and goes outside to see
1:03 - Joins the growing crowd of people around the body
1:04 - Hears Diemschutz' pony and cart pass her place

Okay, so what happens next?
Does she and everyone else in the lane, cooperatively line up single file along the wall opposite the club, to allow Louis to drive in and discover the body?

In the first quote, at what time, or how long after hearing the pony and cart, does the commotion occur?
What do you suppose Fanny meant when she used the word 'commotion'?
If a few people return to the body with Louis (after he discovers it), and find that the woman is dead, and then a couple of them run off for police - do we have what sounds like a commotion, or do we have what sounds like a couple of people running by?
If said people then return with police constables, a few minutes later, what would that sound like?
Is Fanny still preparing for bed by this point, or has she tucked in?

In the second quote, when does the pony and cart go by?
If she goes outside immediately on hearing the commotion, at "just after one o'clock", and she had been at her doorstep until 1 am, as you insist she was, why didn't she see the pony and cart, and Louis?
Of course you wouldn't suppose that 'commotion' is just a euphemism for 'the sound of a passing pony and cart'.
Therefore, you have to accept that in the second quote, the sound of a commotion has replaced the sound of pony and cart movement.

What I find intriguing about these two quotes, is that the second is a direct quote from Fanny, but the first is just a description of a statement from Fanny, and yet people seem to implicitly accept the first as being the most accurate.
Obviously the reason is that only the first quote is compatible with Diemschutz' story.

I'm curious as to why the first quote is not a direct quote from Fanny.
It's a decent length paragraph - so why did the writer not use a direct quote?
Who actually gave the writer, Fanny's statement?
Did Fanny provide it herself, or did it go through an "interpreter"?

[drstrange169]

>>Oh, do you have a source for that? I've not spotted Anderson's statement on this before.<<

Ultimate jtr, page 127.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,
in the 2nd quote, Fanny is in the yard before 1:04!

Please allow your mind to see the anomalies between the two scenarios (and different scenarios, they certainly are).

I believe there was talk of another shiny black bag that night, but I will agree at least for now, that her claim to have seen Leon Goldstein, was subsequently verified.
However, the verification of the Goldstein sighting does not mean that one, two, three or any other number of things she claims to have seen and/or heard, were also verified - it is not a general purpose claim verifier.

Also, if her 10 minute vigil starts at 12:45, and 4 minutes after that period, she hears the pony and cart, how can the time then be 1:04?

Her vigil started at 12:45 until 1am, using Fannys own words, "nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock" and she did not see or hear a cart during that time, and only heard that noise when she was back in her house. After 1. " Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

She stood at her door until 1, she went back in, after a few minutes, she guesses 4, heard the cart and horse. We do not know which direction it travelled.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So what do you think happened if you assume that Diemschutz was lying?

Tristan

Hello Tristan.

That is a big question, and the answer would have to include:

1. Exactly how and where Stride was killed
2. Who did the killing and who helped (including any indirect help)
3. The relationship (if any) to the other Whitechapel murders

Each of these are probably topics for new threads.
Reading that is going to make a lot of people happy - I am very popular in this forum

Re Deimschutz and his pony and cart, he says this:

I had been to the market near the Crystal Palace, and had a barrow like a costermonger's, drawn by a pony, which I keep in George-yard Cable-street.

I'm not sure if this means that both barrow and pony are kept at George Yard, or just the pony, with the barrow being rented as required.
However, the essential idea is that on returning from the market, Louis drops off his wares at 40 Berner St (his home address), then drives back to the yard in Cable St, to drop off pony and cart, and then walks home.

If Louis skipped the first step - going to Berner St - that night, the question then becomes, what happened to the unsold wares sitting in the barrow?
I would suppose one of these 3 possibilities:

1. He left them in the barrow overnight, most likely covered over with something like a tarpaulin. He may normally travel with a tarp anyway, to keep rain off himself and his wares. It rained a lot on the prior day (Sat, Sep 29) - he must have had some sort of cover.
2. He carried them home from Cable St, by hand. That would be plausible if he were left with less than about 15 pounds
3. He had an arrangement organised, so that the pony and cart were driven away from Cable St by someone else, later in the night, and taken somewhere safe

Once Diemschutz returns to the club on foot, there are all sorts of possibilities, but at least we have now freed up a lot of room in the lane, in preparation for the big crowd that will soon gather there!