A Whip and a Prod

[DJA]

Although the Telegraph reported Louis as saying "I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street", the Daily News says "I noticed the time at a tobacco shop in the Commercial-road", with the Morning Advertiser even going as far as saying "I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street"

Harris' shop was at 84 on the NE corner. There was another tobacco shop at no.80, next door to the shop on the NW corner. So therefore, if correct, Louis did indeed pass Fanny at no.36 before entering the club gateway. It seems possible to me that the confusion may have arisen if Louis had actually said "'baccy shop" rather than "baker's shop".



According to his Star interview, he was moving from Berner St to Backchurch Lane;

"It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane. When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved."

I'll stick with the Telegraph.
Done to death and the more knowledgeable Ripperologists,especially on the Forum, seem to have unraveled the truth.

My post should have read 22 Ellen Street.
Suspect the alleged move was fabricated by a lazy journalist.

PS. Seriously doubt that Schwartz and Wess were in Paris prior to 1888,let alone in each others company.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

The Ellen St address comes from Inspector Swanson's report to the home office. I think it actually says Helen St, Backchurch Lane. So another example of slightly mismatched details.

[drstrange169]

>> That bolded statement seems to indicate that Schwartz testified at the inquest, but we know he did not. <<

Oddly, Anderson said the same thing the day before.

[JeffHamm]

>> That bolded statement seems to indicate that Schwartz testified at the inquest, but we know he did not. <<

Oddly, Anderson said the same thing the day before.

Oh, do you have a source for that? I've not spotted Anderson's statement on this before.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

I'll stick with the Telegraph.
Done to death and the more knowledgeable Ripperologists,especially on the Forum, seem to have unraveled the truth.

My post should have read 22 Ellen Street.
Suspect the alleged move was fabricated by a lazy journalist.

PS. Seriously doubt that Schwartz and Wess were in Paris prior to 1888,let alone in each others company.

It would seem that would put you at odds with the truth then, I have no reason to doubt the source myself.

As for any truths being revealed here, I haven't seen any conclusions to explain these murders that make much sense or can stand up to scrutiny, so I think the secret is still safe.

Im also pretty sure the truth isn't as elaborate as some would have it. The mundane hasn't yet been vetted properly.

[Michael W Richards]

Oh, do you have a source for that? I've not spotted Anderson's statement on this before.

- Jeff

Anderson said a great many things that he "only thought he knew".

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yet she heard a cart and horse while inside after 1am, and she didn't see or hear anything on the streets coming from either direction from 12:50 to1am.

Mrs Mortimer heard a pony and cart go by her place at No 36, at about 1 am ...

Daily News (Oct 1): A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

Immediately after shortly before 12:45, is close enough to 12:45.
Add 10 minutes standing time at the her doorstep, brings us to 12:55
Four minutes after that brings us to 12:59.
That is obviously very close to Louis' claim to see the clock (whichever one it was) at exactly 1:00, when approaching No 40.

So what are we to make of this?...

Mrs Mortimer: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the clubhouse, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road.
...
The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

So let's say "just after one o'clock" means 1:02.
To put it bluntly, we now have a colossal problem set:

• No pony and cart are heard going by, at ~1:00, and therefore ...
• There are zero independent witnesses - either audio/visual or audio-only, of Diemschutz' pony and cart, during the entire night
• At precisely the time we would expect Louis to be returning to the body, having gone inside the club for help, we find instead that there is already a group of people around the body, large enough to be causing a commotion, and which now includes Mrs Mortimer herself

How can this be occurring immediately after 1.02?

Not only is the second quote not compatible with the first, it's actually far more serious than that ...

The second scenario is not compatible with the notion that Diemschutz' pony and cart were in the Dutfield's Yard lane, at any time from 1 am

[Michael W Richards]

Your quote above includes the Daily News interview with Fanny, and it suggests she heard a cart and horse about 4 minutes after 1am, she claimed she was at her door continuously from about 10 to 1 until 1am. She saw Goldstein pass at 12:55, and that verifies her claim. She was there. She didn't see Louis or cart and horse arrive, nor did she hear one until about 1:04. We do not know which direction the cart and horse were travelling.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Michael,
in the 2nd quote, Fanny is in the yard before 1:04!

Please allow your mind to see the anomalies between the two scenarios (and different scenarios, they certainly are).

I believe there was talk of another shiny black bag that night, but I will agree at least for now, that her claim to have seen Leon Goldstein, was subsequently verified.
However, the verification of the Goldstein sighting does not mean that one, two, three or any other number of things she claims to have seen and/or heard, were also verified - it is not a general purpose claim verifier.

Also, if her 10 minute vigil starts at 12:45, and 4 minutes after that period, she hears the pony and cart, how can the time then be 1:04?

[JeffHamm]

Anderson said a great many things that he "only thought he knew".

Find me a person for whom that does not apply, and I'll show you a chronic liar.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So what do you think happened if you assume that Diemschutz was lying?

Tristan

Hello Tristan.

That is a big question, and the answer would have to include:

1. Exactly how and where Stride was killed
2. Who did the killing and who helped (including any indirect help)
3. The relationship (if any) to the other Whitechapel murders

Each of these are probably topics for new threads.
Reading that is going to make a lot of people happy - I am very popular in this forum

Re Deimschutz and his pony and cart, he says this:

I had been to the market near the Crystal Palace, and had a barrow like a costermonger's, drawn by a pony, which I keep in George-yard Cable-street.

I'm not sure if this means that both barrow and pony are kept at George Yard, or just the pony, with the barrow being rented as required.
However, the essential idea is that on returning from the market, Louis drops off his wares at 40 Berner St (his home address), then drives back to the yard in Cable St, to drop off pony and cart, and then walks home.

If Louis skipped the first step - going to Berner St - that night, the question then becomes, what happened to the unsold wares sitting in the barrow?
I would suppose one of these 3 possibilities:

1. He left them in the barrow overnight, most likely covered over with something like a tarpaulin. He may normally travel with a tarp anyway, to keep rain off himself and his wares. It rained a lot on the prior day (Sat, Sep 29) - he must have had some sort of cover.
2. He carried them home from Cable St, by hand. That would be plausible if he were left with less than about 15 pounds
3. He had an arrangement organised, so that the pony and cart were driven away from Cable St by someone else, later in the night, and taken somewhere safe

Once Diemschutz returns to the club on foot, there are all sorts of possibilities, but at least we have now freed up a lot of room in the lane, in preparation for the big crowd that will soon gather there!

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,
in the 2nd quote, Fanny is in the yard before 1:04!

Please allow your mind to see the anomalies between the two scenarios (and different scenarios, they certainly are).

I believe there was talk of another shiny black bag that night, but I will agree at least for now, that her claim to have seen Leon Goldstein, was subsequently verified.
However, the verification of the Goldstein sighting does not mean that one, two, three or any other number of things she claims to have seen and/or heard, were also verified - it is not a general purpose claim verifier.

Also, if her 10 minute vigil starts at 12:45, and 4 minutes after that period, she hears the pony and cart, how can the time then be 1:04?

Her vigil started at 12:45 until 1am, using Fannys own words, "nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock" and she did not see or hear a cart during that time, and only heard that noise when she was back in her house. After 1. " Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

She stood at her door until 1, she went back in, after a few minutes, she guesses 4, heard the cart and horse. We do not know which direction it travelled.

[drstrange169]

>>Oh, do you have a source for that? I've not spotted Anderson's statement on this before.<<

Ultimate jtr, page 127.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Her vigil started at 12:45 until 1am, using Fannys own words, "nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock" and she did not see or hear a cart during that time, and only heard that noise when she was back in her house. After 1. " Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

She stood at her door until 1, she went back in, after a few minutes, she guesses 4, heard the cart and horse. We do not know which direction it travelled.

Fine, you win - she hears the pony and cart at about 1:04 (I guess her clock must have been 'fast', or the tower clock 'slow').
However, your exclusive focus on the first quote and particular focus on the bold text, indicates you are missing the point completely.
Let's create a timeline of events, from Fanny's point of view, using both quotes ...

1:02 - Hears a commotion outside, and goes outside to see
1:03 - Joins the growing crowd of people around the body
1:04 - Hears Diemschutz' pony and cart pass her place

Okay, so what happens next?
Does she and everyone else in the lane, cooperatively line up single file along the wall opposite the club, to allow Louis to drive in and discover the body?

In the first quote, at what time, or how long after hearing the pony and cart, does the commotion occur?
What do you suppose Fanny meant when she used the word 'commotion'?
If a few people return to the body with Louis (after he discovers it), and find that the woman is dead, and then a couple of them run off for police - do we have what sounds like a commotion, or do we have what sounds like a couple of people running by?
If said people then return with police constables, a few minutes later, what would that sound like?
Is Fanny still preparing for bed by this point, or has she tucked in?

In the second quote, when does the pony and cart go by?
If she goes outside immediately on hearing the commotion, at "just after one o'clock", and she had been at her doorstep until 1 am, as you insist she was, why didn't she see the pony and cart, and Louis?
Of course you wouldn't suppose that 'commotion' is just a euphemism for 'the sound of a passing pony and cart'.
Therefore, you have to accept that in the second quote, the sound of a commotion has replaced the sound of pony and cart movement.

What I find intriguing about these two quotes, is that the second is a direct quote from Fanny, but the first is just a description of a statement from Fanny, and yet people seem to implicitly accept the first as being the most accurate.
Obviously the reason is that only the first quote is compatible with Diemschutz' story.

I'm curious as to why the first quote is not a direct quote from Fanny.
It's a decent length paragraph - so why did the writer not use a direct quote?
Who actually gave the writer, Fanny's statement?
Did Fanny provide it herself, or did it go through an "interpreter"?

[drstrange169]

>> ... how long after hearing the pony and cart, does the commotion occur?<<

"I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife."
Fanny Mortimer



>> What do you suppose Fanny meant when she used the word 'commotion'?<<

"I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door... "
Fanny Mortimer



>> Is Fanny still preparing for bed by this point, or has she tucked in?<<

"I was just about going to bed,"
Fanny Mortimer