A Whip and a Prod

[Joshua Rogan]

Perhaps Liz tied her scarf tight herself?

[Joshua Rogan]

For the umpteenth time ...... Liz was dead before her throat was cut.

Not according to Phillips;

"It is evident that the haemorrhage which produced death was caused through the partial severance of the left carotid artery."

[NotBlamedForNothing]

DJA: Wasn't aimed at you.
DJA: My reply was directed to both of you.
Me:

DJA: The idea of a neckerchief's bow being pulled at would be more likely to pull the knot open not tighter.

Exactly! So why did Blackwell state that it was very tight? How did it end up that way?

[DJA]

My reply was directed to both of you.

The idea of a neckerchief's bow being pulled at would be more likely to pull the knot open not tighter.

For the umpteenth time ...... Liz was dead before her throat was cut.

Transplant | Definition of Transplant by Merriam-Webster

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It appeared to be aimed at me, given the context of the thread, but never mind.

So, if the baker's clock (or the clock on Commercial Road (who knows?)) is fast, does Louis actually arrive at closer to 12:55? Fanny Mortimer?...

Also, if you're comment wasn't directed at me, that would mean my post #337 has not been replied to, regarding the blood.

So let me try again, to get a response to this...

[Coroner] Did you examine the blood at Berner-street carefully, as to its direction and so forth?
[Phillips] Yes. The blood near to the neck and a few inches to the left side was well clotted, and it had run down the waterway to within a few inches of the side entrance to the club-house.
[Coroner] Were there any spots of blood anywhere else?
[Phillips] I could trace none except that which I considered had been transplanted - if I may use the term - from the original flow from the neck. Roughly estimating it, I should say there was an unusual flow of blood, considering the stature and the nourishment of the body.

What does "I considered [the blood] had been transplanted", mean?

This would appear to be a crucial question.

[DJA]

Wasn't aimed at you.

Don't have a problem with the baker's clock being fast.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Dr Blackwell (effectively) estimated time of death at between 12:46 and 12:56.

Dr Phillips said she died within an hour of his arrival.

Blackwell estimated Phillips to have arrived 20 to 30 minutes after his own arrival, which according to his own timepiece, was 1:16.

That would place Phillips' arrival at between 1:36 and 1:46.

However, Inspector Reid arrived at Dutfield's Yard at 1:45, at which point Phillips was with the body.

We could therefore assume that Phillips arrives no later than 1:43 (and let's actually assume 1:43).

Louis claims to have seen the clock at exactly 1:00, so let's have him pulling up alongside Liz at 1:01.

Let's assume the throat cut has just occurred, and the Ripper is hiding further up the yard.

The nature of the injury and extent of blood flow would suggest that death was not almost instantaneous.

Let's assume death occurs two minutes after the wound is inflicted (does anyone have a better estimate?).

Assuming Louis' time and story true, time of death is therefore 1:03.

This time (1:03), also sets the latest possible time of death, using Phillips' 'within the hour' estimate.

The earliest time of death would be 1:43 minus 60 minutes, or 12:43.

So we have Phillips estimate of 12:43-1:03 - for a mean of 12:53.

We also have Blackwell's estimate of 12:46-12:56 - for a mean of 12:51.

The mean of the means, is 12:52.

This is 11 minutes prior to the approximate time of death in the interruption model - even when using Louis' 1:01 time as part of the calculation!

Crikey.

Bottom lip,cachous ...... she is a bleeder. Genetic condition.

Like Eddowes' eyes ..... different disease named Xanthelasma.

Too many people consider research to be reading others garbage and adding their own.

So instead of believing my garbage, let's set the record straight...

In the interruption model, Liz dies at 1:blank am.

Please fill in the blank...

[DJA]

Corona virus must be a bugger in your part of the world

[Robert St Devil]

Morning Advertiser, Oct 3rd 1888
Elizabeth Stride inquest

PC Lamb: I had no watch with me, and so I only guess the time.


For many during this era, time is an approximation based on - how long does it usually take me to walk from here to there, when does the fixed-duty constable usually end his shift, the brewery clock versus the church clock,&c. These people could only guess at the time as well as you and I can, as indicated by PC Lamb.

[DJA]

In other words, there is no mention of the handkerchief around Stride's neck being twisted.

[Michael W Richards]

In PC Lambs account its worth noting that he first sees men running for help...at around 1. Thought that's when Louis "precisely" pulled in....so how did 30 men suddenly appear by the body between 1 and 1:02 when Lamb is there? How does he arrive at "precisely 1" when Fanny doesn't see or hear him, and when Lamb is already seeing people running for help.

And of course, much more importantly, why do 4 witnesses say they were part of the group around the body with Louis, 15 minutes before Louis said he arrives?

Its always fascinating to see arguments against those corroborated statements by using singular accounts without any corroboration at all. Like the preponderance of evidence doesn't matter.

[Michael W Richards]

"There was checked silk scarf round the neck, the bow of which was thrown to the left side and pulled very tight. There was a long incision in the neck which exactly corresponded with the lower border of the scarf. The scarf was above the wound. The lower edge of the scarf was slightly frayed, as if by a sharp knife."

Blackwell

"There was a check silk scarf around the neck, the bow of which was turned to the left side and pulled very tight"

Blackwell

"...her feet being about a couple of yards from the street and her head in a gutter which runs down the right hand side of the court close to the wall."

Spooner

"About one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial road, between Christian street and Batty street. Two men came running to me shouting. I went towards them. They said, "Come on, there has been another murder." I asked "Where?" As they got to the corner of Berner street, they pointed down the street. Seeing people moving about some distance down Berner street I ran, followed by another constable, 436H. I went into the gateway of No. 40 Berner street, and I saw something dark lying on the right hand side, close to the gate. I turned my lamp on and found it was a woman. I observed that her throat was cut, and she appeared to be dead. I at once sent another constable for the nearest doctor. When I looked round the yard after I arrived, there were about thirty people there."

PC Lamb

".....between half past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive public house at the corner of Christian street and Fairclough street, along with a young woman. We had been in a beershop at the corner of Settle street, Commercial road, and remained till closing time. I stood at the top of Christian street for w few minutes, and then walked down the street. We had been standing there about five and twenty minutes, I suppose, when two Jews came running along. They hallaoed out "Murder!" "Police!" They ran as far as Grove street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They said, "There has been a woman murdered in Berner street." I went with them to the yard adjoining No. 40. I saw a young woman lying just inside the gate. There were about fifteen people in the yard standing round, most of them Jews."

Pc Lamb

The twisting comment is likely a reference to the bow being pulled back and tightly held, and I thought Id save you some time continuing to dispute statements that can be attributed and verified...yes, there was a gutter, yes, it appears by my previous post that Blackwell thought she had been dragged backwards by the scarf, yes it was cut and nicked corresponding to the wound on her throat, and yes a number of people ranging from 15 according to Spooner, at 12:45, to as many as 30 that PC Lamb saw there, just after 1, preceded all people summoned to that spot. So that seems to indicate that the smaller number of 15 at 12:45 grew to a larger number of 30 just after 1. Seems eminently believable. 3 other witnesses corroborate Spooners time and that a group was already by the woman when he first arrived.

[DJA]

The Twist - Chubby Checker - YouTube

[DJA]

A record of either twist would be helpful.

[Michael W Richards]

The twist I suggest and a bow twisted to the side are not mutually exclusive, so....