Diemschutz' pony and cart - an obstruction to proceedings?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Fair chance the "whip" was actually a stick.

Fair chance that Diemschutz' story is a load of old cobblers.

[DJA]

He was resident steward of the Club along with his wife who also assisted in the management.

He was gone for 13.5 hours not 90 minutes.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Fair chance that Diemschutz' story is a load of old cobblers.

To be honest, you need a bit more argument than you think he would forget the time, or his pony was in the way, or the stick was too short to totally dismiss his statement as "cobblers".
Creating a Jewish conspiracy is one task, fitting in Louis Diemschutz as a key player is another.
You would appear to be of the opinion that he lied, for what motive, what did he and the club try to achieve?
Also, you rely on the GSG being a cryptic clue from the killer, which is far from conclusive itself.
There's lots to be questioned about lots of things in this case, but I'm not seeing any convincing evidence about Diemschutz lying here.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Fair chance that Diemschutz' story is a load of old cobblers.

. I had been to the market near the Crystal Palace, and had a barrow like a costermonger's, drawn by a pony, which I keep in George-yard Cable-street. I drove home to leave my goods. I drove into the yard, both gates being wide open.

Id say that the issue around whether he could have reached the body with a whip is settled by this. The picture that Dave posted shows us what such a cart would have looked like. As he was only selling cheap jewellery this cart would have been an ample size for his purpose.

The fact that he mentions the gates being wide open was just to explain that he didn’t need to get down from the cart to open them.

On the issue of the exact timing of his arrival I’m unsure if he ever mentioned how he knew the time but maybe he heard a church clock or he drove past a clock 5 minutes earlier? As he sold cheap jewellery isn’t it possible that he owned a watch or that when he went inside he saw a clock and it was a couple of minutes past one?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The club members are Socialists/Marxists/Anarchists, who are agitating for social reform, or social revolution.
A high-profile murder occurs right outside the club.
Several months later, the initial witnesses to the deceased are arrested for politically related violence.
I don't see a big jump from there to a social awareness/reform notion of the JtR murders.
Yes I am relying on the GSG being a clue that points back to (some of) the club members.
That doesn't mean I'm wanting to push a Jewish conspiracy. Maybe I actually support the club's politics?

Diemschutz story is too vague in parts, too precise in some respects, and too coincidental or low probability at other points.
I can't be more convincing (or convincing at all) at this stage.

Having said that, let me give you a very brief speculative account of Liz Stride's death.

Israel Schwartz sees ES pulled into the street, rather than away from it - this seems odd so must be an important clue.
According to Diemschutz, she had grapes in one hand, and cachous in the other - this seems odd so must be an important clue.
The post-mortem noted blood on back of hand and wrist - an unusual position so must be an important clue.
Diemschutz has a keen eye for detail but is vague on the placement and movement of his pony and cart - probably another clue.

This is what happened:

1. By 12.45, Stride has lost her earlier enthusiasm - “No, not tonight. Some other night.”
2. The club member ignores this, and ends up pulling her toward the street
3. Not long after, Diemschutz arrives behind his pony
4. Stride is encouraged to feed some of the grapes she has been plied with, to the pony
5. On lifting her hand to the pony's mouth, her throat is cut from behind
6. Blood splashes on her hand and wrist as they instinctively move toward her neck
7. Stride is positioned in the lane, and dies shortly after
8. Diemschutz drives pony and cart to the back of the yard
9. Diemschutz alerts members of the club
10. Diemschutz vacates the area temporarily, before returning from fake mission to find a P.C.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

He was resident steward of the Club along with his wife who also assisted in the management.

He was gone for 13.5 hours not 90 minutes.

Thanks. Apparently I am trying too hard.

[DJA]

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Inquests

There is much to learn.The above is accessed through "Documents".


He knew the time courtesy of the corner baker's shop clock.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Also, there's the whole Schwartz Vs Fanny in the doorway, neither of whom were at inquest.

[drstrange169]

Welcome to the boards, most of the questions you raise have been discussed in Casebook already, it's well worth looking at them.



>>He immediately begins detailed observation of Stride, and of those tending to her.<<

I'm not sure where you got that information about a "detailed observation" from, but it is inaccurate. As the Echo pointed out when they interviewed him before the inquest,

" Being asked to describe the body as well as he could, Diemschitz said: I should think the woman was about 27 or 28 years old. I fancy she was of light complexion. (This turns out to be an incorrect description, but the man appears to have been too frightened to make a careful examination.)"

At the Inquest the Daily Telegraph quotes Deimshitz as saying,

"Was the whole of the body resting on the side? - No, I should say only her face. I cannot say how much of the body was sideways. I did not notice what position her hands were in ..."



>>... at the Inquest
Are club members, constables and doctors standing between Stride's body and the cart, as Diemschutz himself had been (twice), several minutes prior, or has pony and cart been "left" in the stabling area? This is not an unreasonable question - especially for a cadet.<<

This question was answered at the inquest,

"What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door. "

The club door was further up the yard away from Mrs Strides body. The toilet area was opposite, leaving plenty of room for people to move around.



>>The word 'left' in this context, implies unsecured. This would be an odd thing for Diemschutz to do, given that after several minutes he goes into the club to continue with 'duties' (what duties? - he was only in the yard to drop off goods). His goods are still in the cart, and he should secure these, but he doesn't. Why?<<

In my experience, people who see a murdered corpse tend to prioritise that, nothing odd in Deimshitz's actions with that regard. Other "duties" would have been moving his wares off the cart and into storage in the club. Your problem solved.



>>Diemschutz also claims to have been body searched in this approximately 10 minute period, something that could have take up a substantial chunk of those 10 minutes if he had to "wait his turn". So when did Diemschutz actually do the "leaving" of pony and cart, out the back?<<

I'm not sure where you get the "10 minute period" from, I thought the body searches didn't happen until police re-enforcements arrived.



>>Diemschutz is quoted as saying:
I drove into the yard. Both gates were open - wide open.
That sounds like there is an element of surprise - as though wide open were not the normal position at 1AM<<

None of his pre inquest quotes say this, attributing a deeper meaning to one version of his account is more to do with your feelings than his I'm afraid.

[drstrange169]

>>The club members are Socialists/Marxists/Anarchists, who are agitating for social reform, or social revolution.
A high-profile murder occurs right outside the club.
Several months later, the initial witnesses to the deceased are arrested for politically related violence.<<

Four men defending themselves against a stone throwing crowd of an estimated to 200 people trying to break into the club
over a religious dispute, is a quite different way of understanding what happened that night.



>>Having said that, let me give you a very brief speculative account of Liz Stride's death. By 12.45, Stride has lost her earlier enthusiasm - “No, not tonight. Some other night.The club member ignores this, and ends up pulling her toward the street<<

The problem is, these two incidents happened at different ends of the street with different descriptions of the men involved. They also supposedly happened at the same time which is a problem.


>>Blood splashes on her hand and wrist as they instinctively move toward her neck<<

In which case blood would be down the front of her and all over her hands, not to mention the problem of the cachous still being held on to. The most logical reason for the specs of blood on the back of her hand would be blood transfer from either Johntson or the PC Lamb feeling for her pulse.


>>Stride is positioned in the lane, and dies shortly after<<

Surely the street is a far less incriminating place for club members?


>>Diemschutz vacates the area temporarily, before returning from fake mission to find a P.C.<<

Deimshitz found Spooner and brought him back to the yard. We know Smith was patrolling the area and other policemen too, so why would it be a fake mission to run along Fairclough>

[DJA]

Talking of ponies,the sixth race at Flemington was won by a 60/1 shot named ...... wait for it ..... Saucy Jack.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Talking of ponies,the sixth race at Flemington was won by a 60/1 shot named ...... wait for it ..... Saucy Jack.

https://www.racenet.com.au/horse-racing-results/caulfield-20200104/tristan-parisienne-handicap-race-6

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

DrStrange, thanks for those posts highlighting the points I couldn't be bothered making. Well put.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I will comment on a few of the remarks by drstrange169. Not too well though. Outside the air is smokey and the sun is pink, but the similarity with Whitechapel in 1888 ends there. Currently 45C/113F. No AC in this room so I'm feeling a little light-headed!

I'm not sure where you got that information about a "detailed observation" from, but it is inaccurate.

Comparing her dress to Annie Chapman's ("Detective Diemschutz"), counts as a detailed observation.
Witnessing grapes in one clenched/unclenched hand - something the police do not seem to have noticed - counts as a detailed observation.
"I fancy she was of light complexion" - sounds about right for a Swede.
Managing these and other particular observations, in the dark of the lane and behind other people, is to me, suspicious.

This question was answered at the inquest,

"What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door. "

This is a fascinating quote. Does he mean, he left it were it was, or alternatively that he moved it there?
If he means 'were it was' - how far is the club door from Stride's body? Too far to prod it with a whip handle!
If he means 'moved it there' - then we have 2 issues.

1. After lighting the match and making out the shape of a woman, he immediately rushes inside the club. Nothing gets moved.
2. Moving pony & cart could be described in this list of descending order of semantic clarity:
   1. I drove the pony and cart down the yard, to just outside the door
   2. I relocated the pony and cart down the yard, to just outside the door
   3. I moved the pony and cart down the yard, to just outside the door
   4. I left the pony and cart down the yard, just outside the door

#4 would be a very odd way of putting it, in fact its almost nonsensical. Yet Diemschutz uses this strange semantics, as well as omitting the precise chronology.
Whoever asked the question though, was "on the ball".
Another point to consider: I left it in the yard by itself
Does 'by itself' suggest that pony & cart were detached from each other? Again, when?

Other "duties" would have been moving his wares off the cart and into storage in the club. Your problem solved.

I'm not sure where you get the "10 minute period" from, I thought the body searches didn't happen until police re-enforcements arrived.

I used this page as a reference. No indication there of moving wares off cart before reentering the club.

When Diemschutz says;

I drove into the yard. Both gates were open - wide open.

... I sense surprise, or, he is overemphasising the point that he did not need to stop at the gates.
Why would he do that? Perhaps because he did indeed stop at the gates (or just prior), so that Stride's throat could be cut as she focused on the pony.

The problem is, these two incidents happened at different ends of the street with different descriptions of the men involved. They also supposedly happened at the same time which is a problem.

He has to keep her interested and get her into the right spot for the 1AM "incident".
She got a lot of kisses and edible gifts that evening, to prevent her from wondering off. Aside from a little bit of rough handling, it worked.

In which case blood would be down the front of her and all over her hands, not to mention the problem of the cachous still being held on to.

Arterial spray would be outwards, toward her hand and pony's face. Too bad no one thought to examine the pony.
Presumably the shock of having her throat cut would cause muscles to contract and therefore her hands clenched around cachous & grapes.

Surely the street is a far less incriminating place for club members?

Quoting Dr Blackwell:

There was a check silk scarf round the neck, the bow of which was turned to the left side and pulled tightly. I formed the opinion that the murderer first took hold of the silk scarf at the back of it and then pulled the deceased backwards.

Her throat was cut just outside the gates and she was then pulled into the lane. It was all over in seconds.

Deimshitz found Spooner and brought him back to the yard. We know Smith was patrolling the area and other policemen too, so why would it be a fake mission to run along Fairclough

To make him look more concerned and therefore innocent.

One more point. The (initial?) throat slash in the standing position may not have been enough to kill Liz, at least not quickly enough.
After helping to place her in the lane and remounting his cart, Diemschutz proceeded to the stabling area.
When passing Stride, her body twitched. She was clinging to life - just.
That movement, is what made the pony shy left.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I will comment on a few of the remarks by drstrange169. Not too well though. Outside the air is smokey and the sun is pink, but the similarity with Whitechapel in 1888 ends there. Currently 45C/113F. No AC in this room so I'm feeling a little light-headed!


Comparing her dress to Annie Chapman's ("Detective Diemschutz"), counts as a detailed observation.
Witnessing grapes in one clenched/unclenched hand - something the police do not seem to have noticed - counts as a detailed observation.
"I fancy she was of light complexion" - sounds about right for a Swede.
Managing these and other particular observations, in the dark of the lane and behind other people, is to me, suspicious.


This is a fascinating quote. Does he mean, he left it were it was, or alternatively that he moved it there?
If he means 'were it was' - how far is the club door from Stride's body? Too far to prod it with a whip handle!
If he means 'moved it there' - then we have 2 issues.

1. After lighting the match and making out the shape of a woman, he immediately rushes inside the club. Nothing gets moved.
2. Moving pony & cart could be described in this list of descending order of semantic clarity:
   1. I drove the pony and cart down the yard, to just outside the door
   2. I relocated the pony and cart down the yard, to just outside the door
   3. I moved the pony and cart down the yard, to just outside the door
   4. I left the pony and cart down the yard, just outside the door

#4 would be a very odd way of putting it, in fact its almost nonsensical. Yet Diemschutz uses this strange semantics, as well as omitting the precise chronology.
Whoever asked the question though, was "on the ball".
Another point to consider: I left it in the yard by itself
Does 'by itself' suggest that pony & cart were detached from each other? Again, when?



I used this page as a reference. No indication there of moving wares off cart before reentering the club.

When Diemschutz says;

... I sense surprise, or, he is overemphasising the point that he did not need to stop at the gates.
Why would he do that? Perhaps because he did indeed stop at the gates (or just prior), so that Stride's throat could be cut as she focused on the pony.


He has to keep her interested and get her into the right spot for the 1AM "incident".
She got a lot of kisses and edible gifts that evening, to prevent her from wondering off. Aside from a little bit of rough handling, it worked.


Arterial spray would be outwards, toward her hand and pony's face. Too bad no one thought to examine the pony.
Presumably the shock of having her throat cut would cause muscles to contract and therefore her hands clenched around cachous & grapes.


Quoting Dr Blackwell:

Her throat was cut just outside the gates and she was then pulled into the lane. It was all over in seconds.


To make him look more concerned and therefore innocent.

One more point. The (initial?) throat slash in the standing position may not have been enough to kill Liz, at least not quickly enough.
After helping to place her in the lane and remounting his cart, Diemschutz proceeded to the stabling area.
When passing Stride, her body twitched. She was clinging to life - just.
That movement, is what made the pony shy left.

Have you thought about moving this to the creative writing board?