Diemschutz' pony and cart - an obstruction to proceedings?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Did wonder if you'd be joining us Herlock. It's a cracker this thread. I said in an early post it should be in "creative writing", I've not changed my mind. But like a motorway accident, I dare to watch, but cannot look away!

Hello Al, I’m drawn to a good conspiracy (but I should have read the quote fully though rather than making a quick post whilst waiting for a taxi) We began with a post doubting whether Diemschutz would have been able to have reached the corpse with a whip. Dave then posted the picture of the Coster’s wagon which appears to answer that one without issue but we’re ploughing on. I need to read the thread fully. My issue (as it always is) is that if you look hard enough for a mystery or a conspiracy you’re bound to find one (or ten)

[DustyBones]

If we are to believe Schwartz's statement, there was most definitely a struggle.

[Ven]

Hi NBFN,

Cachous in the yard suggests a struggle.

Hmm... not necessarily...and we know the Dr also knocked (?) some out of her hand.
The "(although watch this space)"intrigues me...looking forward to it.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Here with the quote I gave, with helper emphasis added:

Dr Phillips: The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter.

[Coroner] Does the presence of the cachous in the left hand indicate that the murder was committed very suddenly and without any struggle? - Some of the cachous were scattered about the yard.
Hand, gutter, yard - that would be 3 locations (albeit one broad one).

I'm not sure what all this means. Dr Phillips doesn't answer the question about "..very suddenly and without any struggle?" and what this has to do with how the cachous got to where they were found. I'm not sure what the point is about the cachous being in three places (and that they still could all be very close together).
Not having a go, just wondering how the placement of the cachous affects anything?

Hello Ven.

---

Stride Inquest
Day 4, Monday, October 5, 1888
Dr. Phillips, surgeon of the H Division of police, being recalled, said:
...
...
[Coroner] Does the presence of the cachous in the left hand indicate that the murder was committed very suddenly and without any struggle? - Some of the cachous were scattered about the yard.
...

---

Cachous in the yard suggests a struggle.
A struggle suggests noise and probable cries for help.
No cries for help were heard (although watch this space).

A struggle also has implications for how she was held down to have her throat cut, and perhaps in what part of the yard also.
If you suppose he put a sock in her mouth, she could just take it out, unless he holds her arms, but then how does he cut her throat?
Maybe he gets her down on the ground, face into the cobblestones?
Except that her face ended up clean, and clothes were tidy.

Every "solution" creates a new problem - that's virtually the definition of Ripperology.

[Ven]

Here with the quote I gave, with helper emphasis added:

Dr Phillips: The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter.

[Coroner] Does the presence of the cachous in the left hand indicate that the murder was committed very suddenly and without any struggle? - Some of the cachous were scattered about the yard.
Hand, gutter, yard - that would be 3 locations (albeit one broad one).

I'm not sure what all this means. Dr Phillips doesn't answer the question about "..very suddenly and without any struggle?" and what this has to do with how the cachous got to where they were found. I'm not sure what the point is about the cachous being in three places (and that they still could all be very close together).
Not having a go, just wondering how the placement of the cachous affects anything?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Did wonder if you'd be joining us Herlock. It's a cracker this thread. I said in an early post it should be in "creative writing", I've not changed my mind. But like a motorway accident, I dare to watch, but cannot look away!

So what's your excuse?
I'd hate to think it was simple dishonesty.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The quote used from Dr Phillips said: “The left arm was extended from the elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter.”

How do you get 3 locations from that? Hand and gutter. They were wrapped in paper and some were obviously dropped. Is this a mystery?

This is pretty bad.
Here with the quote I gave, with helper emphasis added:

Dr Phillips: The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter.

[Coroner] Does the presence of the cachous in the left hand indicate that the murder was committed very suddenly and without any struggle? - Some of the cachous were scattered about the yard.

Hand, gutter, yard - that would be 3 locations (albeit one broad one).

[drstrange169]

>> An open hand can't exert a lot of pressure through both thumb and fingers simultaneously, and even if it could, wouldn't the bluish discoloration look just like that?<<

I‘m assuming you’ve managed to get through life thus far without ever pinching someone, or in turn, been pinched. Of course, thumb and fingers can exert pressure simultaneously!

The bluish discolourations are called a bruises, they are almost an inevitable result of fingers and thumb exerting pressure simultaneously amongst other things.

By the way, pressure from fingers and thumb is something noted in some of the other murders, see Doctor Llewellyn’s inquest comments.



>>There is something about this bluish discoloration that has Dr Phillips puzzled, or at the very least curious.<<

He wasn’t puzzling over anything, he was doing his job, observing the progression of a bruise after death to determine when it was caused.

In the end, as Dr Blackwell Blackwell noted,
“… it was difficult to say how recently they were produced.”



>> … someone(s) are holding Stride while the scarf is tied very tightly around her neck.<<

So we now have added a third person into the mix. Three attacking Mrs Stride simultaneously, one untying then re-tying Mrs Strides scarf.



>>Open palms holding Liz's arms against her body are not going to cause bruising.<<

Open palms?

So he wasn’t actually holding her, just pressing his thumbs into her chest?

One has to wonder why she didn’t just push him away if she wasn’t being actually held.

And can you explain how you press your thumbs into a chest whist your palms are pressing someone's arms against their body?




>> ...blanket ...<<

As noted previously the blanket business doesn’t warrant discussing for me.



>> .. he doesn't see a pony and cart, because the nightwatchman chases him away before it arrives!<<

Ah, so now Deimshitz wasn’t actually involved, or are you saying two men held on to Mrs Stride for 15 minutes, without, of course actually holding on to her, only using open palms, finally cutting her throat when the pony arrives, to spray the blood in its face.



>>The evidence I am working off:
Dr Phillips: The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter.<<

Then perhaps the evidence you should be working on with regard to the cachous is,
“It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand.” Dr Blackwell.



>>The cachous, lack of blood spray, tight scarf, bluish discoloration, body position and other elements of the puzzle, all need to be explained by a sequence of events that do not contradict each other, or any of the known facts and high-probables. That's difficult! <<

Not really, it’s very simple.

Mrs Stride and the killer enter the yard. (By which one’s instigation, is unknown.)

Reaching the spot, where she was found, the killer either:

Subdues Mrs Stride by some method, be it, strangulation, drug, pressure point or some other method, places her on the ground.

Or pulls out a knife and tells her to get on the ground and not to scream, under penalty of death.

Once on the ground, the killer grabs the scarf, lifts her head pulling the scarf tight and cuts her throat.

Because the killer is holding Mrs Strides head up by the scarf, the cut naturally follows the line of the scarf.

There would be no arterial spray, no staining on the front of the clothes and is in accordance with, the very experienced, Dr Phillips's summation of what happened.


Is that what happened? None of us know, but it covers the forensic evidence, explains the cachous, the position of the body and the lack of disarrangement of the clothes.
No over complicated conspiracy stories.

As Dr Blackwell noted when the the bruises happened is unknown.

Ocram’s Razor.



>>The blanket is just my first attempt at reconciling everything, without introducing anything outlandish.<<

In which case, I’d hate to hear what you think is outlandish;-)


>> One more thing; you keep saying I should read the evidence.
Okay, but what exactly counts as evidence?<<

Things like, Dr Blackwell explaining he dropped the cachous, anatomical knowledge of what hands are capable of doing, what a bruise looks like, how they are caused and what doctors do at an autopsy, etc.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

The quote used from Dr Phillips said: “The left arm was extended from the elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter.”

How do you get 3 locations from that? Hand and gutter. They were wrapped in paper and some were obviously dropped. Is this a mystery?

Did wonder if you'd be joining us Herlock. It's a cracker this thread. I said in an early post it should be in "creative writing", I've not changed my mind. But like a motorway accident, I dare to watch, but cannot look away!

[DJA]

Dr Blackwell spillled some cachous when removing them from her left forefinger and thumb.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. So some of the cachous is scattered around, some in the gutter, and some (more or less) in Stride's left hand.
We need a theory compatible with all 3 locations!

The quote used from Dr Phillips said: “The left arm was extended from the elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter.”

How do you get 3 locations from that? Hand and gutter. They were wrapped in paper and some were obviously dropped. Is this a mystery?

[DJA]

Rolf Harris Show 22nd March 1969 - Jake The Peg BBC - YouTube

[NotBlamedForNothing]

>>Especially the right. Left hand also has to cover the mouth.<<

So we are looking for a three handed man, that shouldn't have been to hard to find.

You still haven't explained why there were no thumb marks on Mrs Stride's back.

However, Dr. Phillips description is perfect in sync with somebody grabbing her from the front. The fingers bruising the shoulders whilst the opposing thumbs bruised just under the collar bone. The exact span of a hand.

I don't think there is "perfect sync".
An open hand can't exert a lot of pressure through both thumb and fingers simultaneously, and even if it could, wouldn't the bluish discoloration look just like that?

Dr Phillips: Over both shoulders, especially the right, from the front aspect under colar bones and in front of chest there is a bluish discolouration which I have watched and seen on two occasions since.

There is something about this bluish discoloration that has Dr Phillips puzzled, or at the very least curious.
Having said that, you're missing my point anyway, and that is; someone(s) are holding Stride while the scarf is tied very tightly around her neck.
I cannot say for sure if there are 2 or 3 people involved (just as you can't say anything about the scarf), but it's not super relevant anyway.
Furthermore, it would seem to be you who requires a suspect with three arms - two to produce the apparent bruising, and one to cut the throat.

WANTED: Three armed bandit, suspected of killing women in the Whitechapel area.
Goes by the name of Jake the Ripper

>> ... a man could clench the arms of a woman the size of Liz Stride, and still be able to press thumbs into collar bone region<<

In which case there would be bruising to the arms or wrists.

Open palms holding Liz's arms against her body are not going to cause bruising.

>>Did Schwartz actually hear choked screams?
I know he sees a woman talking to a man, but maybe it just looked like that from a distance, in the darkness.<<

What Schwartz definitely didn't see, was a group of men, a blanket and a pony and cart!

What is becoming evident to me, is that Ripperologists place too much weight on nighttime eyewitness accounts.
My suggestion that Schwartz heard choked screaming was very speculative, but you seem to want to take him very seriously, even though:

• eye witness accounts are notoriously unreliable
• the events recalled are at nighttime, and there is no modern lighting
• his account is 3rd-hand
• his account is translated
• he is a actor in the scene - not just a passive observer

No, Schwartz didn't see 3 men. Maybe two were obscured by building and/or gate, and not visible in the darkness of the lane. You know, that same dark area that JtR supposedly hides from Diemschutz, at a closer distance.
No, he doesn't see a blanket on the ground across the road, just like he doesn't observe the smoothness of the cobblestones.
No, he doesn't see a pony and cart, because the nightwatchman chases him away before it arrives!

>>Cutting along the line of the scarf would I think, require the cutter to be in front or above her.<<

So he was left handed?

Why did he have to deliberately cut exactly along the scarf line? What was the point of that?

Isn't there a far more logic answer that explains just about everything?

Left-handedness had occurred to me. Having skimmed Casebook content on this subject, I'm not sure how important this might be though.

Not sure about the reason for the precise cut, but that is for everyone to answer (it happened).
Let me see what I can come up with (particularly given how much everyone is enjoying this thread!).

The Diemschutz Interrupted the Killer Theory requires split-second timing, and is full of logical flaws and verbal contradictions.

>>Grab her front and back, restraining arms and covering mouth (or stuffing it with a sock)<<

Disproved by the forensic evidence and Schwartz's if he is to be believed.

Covered above, but how JtR managed to restrain, keep quiet, and cut the throat of at least 4 of the C5, is obviously a massive question.

>>Cachous packet falls to ground, and is picked up by a man (don't won't to muddy the evidence)<<

Dr Blackwell split the cachous, you really have to start reading the evidence.

The evidence I am working off:

Dr Phillips: The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter.

[Coroner] Does the presence of the cachous in the left hand indicate that the murder was committed very suddenly and without any struggle? - Some of the cachous were scattered about the yard.

So some of the cachous is scattered around, some in the gutter, and some (more or less) in Stride's left hand.
We need a theory compatible with all 3 locations!

Sorry, but the rest just isn't worth commenting on. We've gone from ponies covered in blood to blankets in the street.

The cachous, lack of blood spray, tight scarf, bluish discoloration, body position and other elements of the puzzle, all need to be explained by a sequence of events that do not contradict each other, or any of the known facts and high-probables.
That's difficult! The blanket is just my first attempt at reconciling everything, without introducing anything outlandish.
Apart from the blanket itself, it just requires a few lads from the club, and good sharp knife from the kitchen.
However, this is not my "Lock it in Eddie" answer to the puzzle!

Time to move on folks, nothing to see here.

You Interuptionists are right to be worried!

One more thing; you keep saying I should read the evidence.
Okay, but what exactly counts as evidence?
Does Abberline's description of Schwartz's translated testimony count as strong evidence?
What about newspaper reports, and how should we rank the reliability of each newspaper of the time?
"The Evidence" is not a clear-cut thing - that's why it's part of what is debated!

[DJA]

Oops.

Sorry about that Chief.

[drstrange169]

Got soaking wet catching the train home, hopefully the rain will move on somewhere useful.