Diemschutz' pony and cart - an obstruction to proceedings?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Talking of ponies,the sixth race at Flemington was won by a 60/1 shot named ...... wait for it ..... Saucy Jack.

https://www.racenet.com.au/horse-racing-results/caulfield-20200104/tristan-parisienne-handicap-race-6

[DJA]

Talking of ponies,the sixth race at Flemington was won by a 60/1 shot named ...... wait for it ..... Saucy Jack.

[drstrange169]

>>The club members are Socialists/Marxists/Anarchists, who are agitating for social reform, or social revolution.
A high-profile murder occurs right outside the club.
Several months later, the initial witnesses to the deceased are arrested for politically related violence.<<

Four men defending themselves against a stone throwing crowd of an estimated to 200 people trying to break into the club
over a religious dispute, is a quite different way of understanding what happened that night.



>>Having said that, let me give you a very brief speculative account of Liz Stride's death. By 12.45, Stride has lost her earlier enthusiasm - “No, not tonight. Some other night.The club member ignores this, and ends up pulling her toward the street<<

The problem is, these two incidents happened at different ends of the street with different descriptions of the men involved. They also supposedly happened at the same time which is a problem.


>>Blood splashes on her hand and wrist as they instinctively move toward her neck<<

In which case blood would be down the front of her and all over her hands, not to mention the problem of the cachous still being held on to. The most logical reason for the specs of blood on the back of her hand would be blood transfer from either Johntson or the PC Lamb feeling for her pulse.


>>Stride is positioned in the lane, and dies shortly after<<

Surely the street is a far less incriminating place for club members?


>>Diemschutz vacates the area temporarily, before returning from fake mission to find a P.C.<<

Deimshitz found Spooner and brought him back to the yard. We know Smith was patrolling the area and other policemen too, so why would it be a fake mission to run along Fairclough>

[drstrange169]

Welcome to the boards, most of the questions you raise have been discussed in Casebook already, it's well worth looking at them.



>>He immediately begins detailed observation of Stride, and of those tending to her.<<

I'm not sure where you got that information about a "detailed observation" from, but it is inaccurate. As the Echo pointed out when they interviewed him before the inquest,

" Being asked to describe the body as well as he could, Diemschitz said: I should think the woman was about 27 or 28 years old. I fancy she was of light complexion. (This turns out to be an incorrect description, but the man appears to have been too frightened to make a careful examination.)"

At the Inquest the Daily Telegraph quotes Deimshitz as saying,

"Was the whole of the body resting on the side? - No, I should say only her face. I cannot say how much of the body was sideways. I did not notice what position her hands were in ..."



>>... at the Inquest
Are club members, constables and doctors standing between Stride's body and the cart, as Diemschutz himself had been (twice), several minutes prior, or has pony and cart been "left" in the stabling area? This is not an unreasonable question - especially for a cadet.<<

This question was answered at the inquest,

"What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door. "

The club door was further up the yard away from Mrs Strides body. The toilet area was opposite, leaving plenty of room for people to move around.



>>The word 'left' in this context, implies unsecured. This would be an odd thing for Diemschutz to do, given that after several minutes he goes into the club to continue with 'duties' (what duties? - he was only in the yard to drop off goods). His goods are still in the cart, and he should secure these, but he doesn't. Why?<<

In my experience, people who see a murdered corpse tend to prioritise that, nothing odd in Deimshitz's actions with that regard. Other "duties" would have been moving his wares off the cart and into storage in the club. Your problem solved.



>>Diemschutz also claims to have been body searched in this approximately 10 minute period, something that could have take up a substantial chunk of those 10 minutes if he had to "wait his turn". So when did Diemschutz actually do the "leaving" of pony and cart, out the back?<<

I'm not sure where you get the "10 minute period" from, I thought the body searches didn't happen until police re-enforcements arrived.



>>Diemschutz is quoted as saying:
I drove into the yard. Both gates were open - wide open.
That sounds like there is an element of surprise - as though wide open were not the normal position at 1AM<<

None of his pre inquest quotes say this, attributing a deeper meaning to one version of his account is more to do with your feelings than his I'm afraid.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Also, there's the whole Schwartz Vs Fanny in the doorway, neither of whom were at inquest.

[DJA]

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Inquests

There is much to learn.The above is accessed through "Documents".


He knew the time courtesy of the corner baker's shop clock.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

He was resident steward of the Club along with his wife who also assisted in the management.

He was gone for 13.5 hours not 90 minutes.

Thanks. Apparently I am trying too hard.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The club members are Socialists/Marxists/Anarchists, who are agitating for social reform, or social revolution.
A high-profile murder occurs right outside the club.
Several months later, the initial witnesses to the deceased are arrested for politically related violence.
I don't see a big jump from there to a social awareness/reform notion of the JtR murders.
Yes I am relying on the GSG being a clue that points back to (some of) the club members.
That doesn't mean I'm wanting to push a Jewish conspiracy. Maybe I actually support the club's politics?

Diemschutz story is too vague in parts, too precise in some respects, and too coincidental or low probability at other points.
I can't be more convincing (or convincing at all) at this stage.

Having said that, let me give you a very brief speculative account of Liz Stride's death.

Israel Schwartz sees ES pulled into the street, rather than away from it - this seems odd so must be an important clue.
According to Diemschutz, she had grapes in one hand, and cachous in the other - this seems odd so must be an important clue.
The post-mortem noted blood on back of hand and wrist - an unusual position so must be an important clue.
Diemschutz has a keen eye for detail but is vague on the placement and movement of his pony and cart - probably another clue.

This is what happened:

1. By 12.45, Stride has lost her earlier enthusiasm - “No, not tonight. Some other night.”
2. The club member ignores this, and ends up pulling her toward the street
3. Not long after, Diemschutz arrives behind his pony
4. Stride is encouraged to feed some of the grapes she has been plied with, to the pony
5. On lifting her hand to the pony's mouth, her throat is cut from behind
6. Blood splashes on her hand and wrist as they instinctively move toward her neck
7. Stride is positioned in the lane, and dies shortly after
8. Diemschutz drives pony and cart to the back of the yard
9. Diemschutz alerts members of the club
10. Diemschutz vacates the area temporarily, before returning from fake mission to find a P.C.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Fair chance that Diemschutz' story is a load of old cobblers.

. I had been to the market near the Crystal Palace, and had a barrow like a costermonger's, drawn by a pony, which I keep in George-yard Cable-street. I drove home to leave my goods. I drove into the yard, both gates being wide open.

Id say that the issue around whether he could have reached the body with a whip is settled by this. The picture that Dave posted shows us what such a cart would have looked like. As he was only selling cheap jewellery this cart would have been an ample size for his purpose.

The fact that he mentions the gates being wide open was just to explain that he didn’t need to get down from the cart to open them.

On the issue of the exact timing of his arrival I’m unsure if he ever mentioned how he knew the time but maybe he heard a church clock or he drove past a clock 5 minutes earlier? As he sold cheap jewellery isn’t it possible that he owned a watch or that when he went inside he saw a clock and it was a couple of minutes past one?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Fair chance that Diemschutz' story is a load of old cobblers.

To be honest, you need a bit more argument than you think he would forget the time, or his pony was in the way, or the stick was too short to totally dismiss his statement as "cobblers".
Creating a Jewish conspiracy is one task, fitting in Louis Diemschutz as a key player is another.
You would appear to be of the opinion that he lied, for what motive, what did he and the club try to achieve?
Also, you rely on the GSG being a cryptic clue from the killer, which is far from conclusive itself.
There's lots to be questioned about lots of things in this case, but I'm not seeing any convincing evidence about Diemschutz lying here.

[DJA]

He was resident steward of the Club along with his wife who also assisted in the management.

He was gone for 13.5 hours not 90 minutes.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Fair chance the "whip" was actually a stick.

Fair chance that Diemschutz' story is a load of old cobblers.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi NBFN, welcome to Casebook.

Thank you.

Diemschutz is quoted as saying:

I drove into the yard. Both gates were open - wide open.

That sounds like there is an element of surprise - as though wide open were not the normal position at 1AM.

I can’t see this as any better ‘timing’ than Lechmere finding Nichols or Davis finding Chapman?

Mentioning that he arrived "exactly at one am" seems excessively precise, and coincidental. How did he remember anyway, after the supposed shock of finding a dead body that he initially thought could be his wife? It's more likely a detail he would have forgotten.

By the way, has the ~90 minute journey time been checked?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I'm not entirely sure what the point being made here is?

Diemschutz returns to the yard after unsuccessfully searching for a P.C.
He immediately begins detailed observation of Stride, and of those tending to her.
Are club members, constables and doctors standing between Stride's body and the cart, as Diemschutz himself had been (twice), several minutes prior, or has pony and cart been "left" in the stabling area? This is not an unreasonable question - especially for a cadet.
The word 'left' in this context, implies unsecured. This would be an odd thing for Diemschutz to do, given that after several minutes he goes into the club to continue with 'duties' (what duties? - he was only in the yard to drop off goods). His goods are still in the cart, and he should secure these, but he doesn't. Why?
Well apparently because he is more interested in the activities around Stride, ascertaining her personal appearance, and observing the contents of each of her hands. This is achieved in near darkness and behind other people - somehow.
Diemschutz also claims to have been body searched in this approximately 10 minute period, something that could have take up a substantial chunk of those 10 minutes if he had to "wait his turn". So when did Diemschutz actually do the "leaving" of pony and cart, out the back?
Current descriptions are all too vague on this point, for my liking, and frankly I don't see the point of being "reasonable" toward Diemschutz. He claims to have discovered a dead body, so why not take a ruthless approach in pinning him and his story right down?

Now the issue is that his whips too long or he was too far away or something?

Too short, unless he lands precisely next to her, with little or no gap between body and cart. Enormous odds against.

Are you implying that Diemschutz killed Liz, a la Charles Lechmere, and made a poor cover story about finding the body?

Maybe not the killer himself, but at the very least, one of the Juwes who will not be blamed for nothing.

[DJA]

Fair chance the "whip" was actually a stick.

Ponies will shy around obstacles,leaving plenty of room to jump down.

He was driving on the right and would have been seated on the right.