Changing Your Mind

[Losmandris]

I don`t know .. some of the places these immigrants arrived from were pretty bad places, some of these places were worse than Liverpool. But yes, Schwartz may have been extra paranoid.

Maybe that's the point, poor guy may have seen some real violence, murders even, especially if he had fled from certain areas in Eastern Europe. Over in the East End, you know, people just had a bit more of a casual approach to a bit of violence. May have looked, sounded bad but really there was no real intent in it.

Realise that I am making some big assumptions here, but as I said, I always found it strange than the police didn't really make much or do much with Schwartz. Again, another assumption, I wonder if some evidence relating to his encounter has been lost or destroyed? Maybe the police tracked down either BS or pipe man and eliminated them from their enquiries. Some people have posited that BS man could have been Morris Eagle. Could their be something in that?

Tristan

[Darryl Kenyon]

Going back to Changing your mind [thread], has anyone changed their mind on Emma Smith? If I had to put money on it I would still say no to Jtr but it is more 50/50 for me. Basically I was impressed by Tom Wescott's theorising in his Bank holiday murders book.
Regards Darryl

[Michael W Richards]

Studying the crimes since 1888? Just how old are you?

I guess it just feels like that long, and Im 61. These crimes caught my attention in the era of the "diary" appearance so Ive had to read a lot of materials from all sources to get the real backdrop and events as correct as can be. My feelings about Strides inclusion began early and have stayed steady, Ive never seen any data or argument that makes a single cut a "rip". And that's what Annies killer, and by similarity Pollys, did, he killed so he could cut into...that's the obvious statement, he was a new beginning in that neighborhood.

I will admit to changing my mind lately on one thing though....Im starting to see Kates murder as a legitimate extension of Annies killing. Ive had difficulty pairing her with Polly and Annie because of what I feel are significant and relevant departures, and additions. But the same killer could have killed for different reasons. To assume that this killer only went out to seek prey may be a mistake, perhaps one man, or some men, might kill multiple times for different reasons. The pivotal point is then the mutilations,..thats atypical in average murder cases. Unless its for disposal..... (see Torsos of the 1880's). The actual mutilations such as seen on Annie, skill displayed aside for a moment, are still in large part in keeping with Kates wounds. Not many people would have the stomach for this, even hunters or butchers might flinch doing these things to a human. A warm human.

So its an evolution, yes, but with fundamental aspects that seem like they should be fixed points of reference.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Going back to Changing your mind [thread], has anyone changed their mind on Emma Smith? If I had to put money on it I would still say no to Jtr but it is more 50/50 for me. Basically I was impressed by Tom Wescott's theorising in his Bank holiday murders book.
Regards Darryl

I enjoyed Tom’s book too Darryl but I’m still set on Smith being attacked and killed by group of men as she’d said.

[Michael W Richards]

So you are more qualified than the police of the day and subsequent profesisonals in this area to disconnect the links? Very bold of you. Regardless of what "websites" say, the official police line is these victims are killed by the same killer, and until that view is overturned it does remain a matter of police fact at least.

Apart from the police who seem to be under that misconceoption. But thankfully you're not.
You must think the victorians had some very impressive lighting in their homes. Parafin lamps and candles must have really lit the narrow alleyway up like a funfair.

Sorry to be out of the enlightened loop that clearly apparently every member on here is aside from me

The wall of the club seperated the club from the alleyway. So was it nearby? Or was the yard actually part of the club? Most likely the yard is where you put your pony and cart, much like a car park where you would park your car. But what do I know?

Which was not accesible or visible from the yard. As I said there was a wall in the way. "On entering the gateway, a brick wall runs for some distance on the right-hand side, and it was on the footpath here, and by the side of the brick wall, that the victim was found."

Amazing how those pesky witnesses can cloud the story. A fruit seller calims he sold grapes and was happy to be a witness but failed to be interviewed by the police until his witness statement was published in the paper. Witnesses at the scene descibe one hand clutching a grape stem and one clutching sweets. Somehow though the stems never made the inquest but the fruit stains and skins did. Magic grapes must be much like magic beans. The stuff of fairytale, unless they come in fruit stain and skin form.

I am honoured such a veteran of esteemed ripperorlogy would even dain to dismiss my frivolous "non-facts".

Ill just respond to your interpretation of the information you have on the entrance and passageway to the club, and the wall referred to. Its the side wall of the Club. The wall is 2 stories high, there are windows that look down onto the passageway, and onto the cottages that lined the left hand side of that passageway. The door to the kitchen was back along that right wall, and it was ajar. Once you get further down on the left there is Wess's printing shop, then in the yard itself are stables, (unused). The gateway is approximately 10 ft wide, the passageway slightly larger. Liz is found with her feet almost touching the gate inside to the right, from the street. She was at least partially obscured from view due to the right gate being ajar, she was behind it. She would have been visible to anyone leaving via the side door though.

[Losmandris]

Hello Jon,

Well it was kind of a piss poor attack when you come right down to it at least as it was described by Schwartz. We also don't know who instigated the "attack" and what the intentions of the B.S. man were. Did he intend to cause her significant bodily harm or maybe just give her a shove for mouthing off to him?

I know that I am a lone wolf crying in the wilderness on this point but I absolutely hate the word attack. It is such a heavily loaded word and one not used by Schwartz.

c.d.

I am with you 100% on this one c.d.

If the police believed that Schwartz actually saw the ripper, potentially in the act of killing a victim, then surely we would hear a lot more about him? He would/should have been the star witness at the inquest. The fact that he wasn't speaks volumes to me.

Tristan

[Michael W Richards]

I am with you 100% on this one c.d.

If the police believed that Schwartz actually saw the ripper, potentially in the act of killing a victim, then surely we would hear a lot more about him? He would/should have been the star witness at the inquest. The fact that he wasn't speaks volumes to me.

Tristan

That is logical reasoning. Its the absence of presence, not the information presented, that matters when it comes to Schwartz. What he said becomes irrelevant when faced with his complete lack of presence after that Sunday night. Mentioning his story, and even supporting his story, does nothing more than voice a personal belief. Its not establishing an ascertained fact. Or an officially supported story.

[Abby Normal]

I enjoyed Tom’s book too Darryl but I’m still set on Smith being attacked and killed by group of men as she’d said.

agree. theres just not enough similarities imho to the ripper crimes. and too many differences.

attacked by a group
obvious sexual nature
elements of torture
probably death was not intentional

it has all the elements of gang rape/attack

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon,

Well it was kind of a piss poor attack when you come right down to it at least as it was described by Schwartz.

We also don't know who instigated the "attack" and what the intentions of the B.S. man were.

Well, c.d, you`d go to jail here, if you did what BS did.
But significantly, the same woman was found murdered 15 mins after this "attack".
and we do know who instigated the "attack".

[Jon Guy]

I am with you 100% on this one c.d.

If the police believed that Schwartz actually saw the ripper, potentially in the act of killing a victim, then surely we would hear a lot more about him? He would/should have been the star witness at the inquest. The fact that he wasn't speaks volumes to me.

Tristan

Or perhaps, the fact that it seems he didn`t appear at the inquest, speaks volumes too.
Also, the fact that his statement landed on Chief Insp Swanson`s desk, also speaks volumes.

[Michael W Richards]

Or perhaps, the fact that it seems he didn`t appear at the inquest, speaks volumes too.
Also, the fact that his statement landed on Chief Insp Swanson`s desk, also speaks volumes.

The fact his name is in a report means nothing Jon, lots of mens names appear in reports. The facts are that nothing he said happened is entered into any known records for the Inquest into how Liz died. Something inconceivable if he was believed to be a trusted source, his story places an assailant with a soon to be victim minutes before she, supposedly, is found. It could not be ignored in the question of how Liz died...but it was.

[erobitha]

Ill just respond to your interpretation of the information you have on the entrance and passageway to the club, and the wall referred to. Its the side wall of the Club. The wall is 2 stories high, there are windows that look down onto the passageway, and onto the cottages that lined the left hand side of that passageway. The door to the kitchen was back along that right wall, and it was ajar. Once you get further down on the left there is Wess's printing shop, then in the yard itself are stables, (unused). The gateway is approximately 10 ft wide, the passageway slightly larger. Liz is found with her feet almost touching the gate inside to the right, from the street. She was at least partially obscured from view due to the right gate being ajar, she was behind it. She would have been visible to anyone leaving via the side door though.

I'll just respond to your response. The gates were between 8ft - 9ft wide if you trust all of the work put in by the excellent JTR3D.com website. Also there is no evidence that says there were windows on either side wall upon entering the yard. Most likely not. Yes, there were cottages further down on the left, but the immediate entrance was obscured both on the left and right hand side. There were some outbuildings behind the left wall and between the cottages where no light would have most likely have been accesible at that time. We are led to believe there is a side door further down on the right wall (part of the club) and more windows. However there is no evidence those window and door spaces were not already bricked up which later photos suggest they were. Reports at the time claimed the wall on the right hand side went for some distance. There was mention of a side door at the end, was that the kitchen or an exit?

I do not believe a man cannot hide in the shadows that were available that night, the alley was very dark by a number of witness accounts. Also it was either still raining or just finishing at this time, which would have added to the extra poor visbility.

[Michael W Richards]

I'll just respond to your response.1. The gates were between 8ft - 9ft wide if you trust all of the work put in by the excellent JTR3D.com website. 2. Also there is no evidence that says there were windows on either side wall upon entering the yard. Most likely not. Yes, there were cottages further down on the left, 3. but the immediate entrance was obscured both on the left and right hand side. There were some outbuildings behind the left wall and between the cottages where no light would have most likely have been accesible at that time. 4. We are led to believe there is a side door further down on the right wall (part of the club) and more windows. However there is no evidence those window and door spaces were not already bricked up which later photos suggest they were. Reports at the time claimed the wall on the right hand side went for some distance.

1. Check your sources again. See the width of the 2 gates? 5 feet per side. The left hand one had a wicket in it, that was useded when the members sold viewers a peek of the murder scene.

2. William Wess: "I reside at No. 2, William-street, Cannon-street-road, and am overseer in the printing office attached to No. 40, Berner-street, Commercial-road, which premises are in the occupation of the International Working Men's Education Society, whose club is carried on there. On the ground floor of the club is a room, the door and window of which face the street. At the rear of this is the kitchen, whilst the first floor consists of a large room which is used for our meetings and entertainments, I being a member of the club. At the south side of the premises is a courtyard, to which entrance can be obtained through a double door, in one section of which is a smaller one, which is used when the larger barriers are closed. The large doors are generally closed at night, but sometimes remain open. On the left side of the yard is a house, which is divided into three tenements,(cottages) and occupied, I believe, by that number of families. At the end is a store or workshop belonging to Messrs. Hindley and Co., sack manufacturers. I do not know that a way out exists there. The club premises and the printing-office occupy the entire length of the yard on the right side. Returning to the club-house, the front room on the ground floor is used for meals. In the kitchen is a window which faces the door opening into the yard. The intervening passage is illuminated by means of a fanlight over the door. The printing-office, which does not communicate with the club, consists of two rooms, one for compositors and the other for the editor. On Saturday the compositors finished their labours at two o'clock in the afternoon. The editor concluded earlier, but remained at the place until the discovery of the murder. "

3. No where is that reported.
4. See point 2 and any other documentation that exists about the passageway to Dutfields Yard.

[Michael W Richards]

More on the lighting..."

There is no lamp in the yard, and none of the street lamps light it, so that the yard is only lit by the lights through the windows at the side of the club and of the tenements opposite. As to the tenements, I only observed lights in two first-floor windows. There was also a light in the printing-office, the editor being in his room reading.

[erobitha]

1. Check your sources again. See the width of the 2 gates? 5 feet per side. The left hand one had a wicket in it, that was useded when the members sold viewers a peek of the murder scene.

2. William Wess: "I reside at No. 2, William-street, Cannon-street-road, and am overseer in the printing office attached to No. 40, Berner-street, Commercial-road, which premises are in the occupation of the International Working Men's Education Society, whose club is carried on there. On the ground floor of the club is a room, the door and window of which face the street. At the rear of this is the kitchen, whilst the first floor consists of a large room which is used for our meetings and entertainments, I being a member of the club. At the south side of the premises is a courtyard, to which entrance can be obtained through a double door, in one section of which is a smaller one, which is used when the larger barriers are closed. The large doors are generally closed at night, but sometimes remain open. On the left side of the yard is a house, which is divided into three tenements,(cottages) and occupied, I believe, by that number of families. At the end is a store or workshop belonging to Messrs. Hindley and Co., sack manufacturers. I do not know that a way out exists there. The club premises and the printing-office occupy the entire length of the yard on the right side. Returning to the club-house, the front room on the ground floor is used for meals. In the kitchen is a window which faces the door opening into the yard. The intervening passage is illuminated by means of a fanlight over the door. The printing-office, which does not communicate with the club, consists of two rooms, one for compositors and the other for the editor. On Saturday the compositors finished their labours at two o'clock in the afternoon. The editor concluded earlier, but remained at the place until the discovery of the murder. "

3. No where is that reported.
4. See point 2 and any other documentation that exists about the passageway to Dutfields Yard.

Berner St is a residential street located in the Northern area of St. George's-in-the-East parish, near Whitechapel. It ran North-South from Commercial Rd to Ellen St, (two blocks south of Boyd St). Berner St ended at the London, Tilbury and Southern railway. It is crossed by Fairclough St at its midpoint. Beyond Ellen St lay the Swedish Church.
On Berner St's Western-side, heading North of Fairclough St, lay a public house, The Nelson, (#46, North-West corner of Fairclough & Berner St); Matthew Packer's greengrocer's shop (#44); a cottage (#42); a double-gated entry, leading to Dutfield's Yard; The International Workingmen's Educational Club (#40); residence of Barnett Kentorrich (#38), residence of Mrs Fanny Mortimer (#36)and more cottages, including Charles Letchford's residence (#30) and Edwin Sumner's greengrocer shop (#2).
On Berner St's Eastern-side (North of Fairclough), stood several houses with a board school (#25-41) at the North-East corner of Fairclough & Berner St. on the South-East corner of the junction was a dwelling house (#43).
On the South-West Corner of this junction was Henry Norris's chandler shop (#48, opposite The Nelson). On the Western-side of Berner St heading South from Fairclough St was William Marshall's residence (#64). On the Northern corner of Boyd & Berner St was the George IV public house (#68, owned by Edmund Farrow). Continuing South on the Western-side there was Louis Friedman's baker shop (#70), Jacob Lubin's greengrocer shop (#74), and a chemist, John Simkin (#82). (There were 82 numbers listed on Berner St at the time.)46

The International Workingmen's Educational Club (IWEC or the club) sat north of and adjacent to Dutfield's Yard. It was an old wooden house converted for use as a social club capable of holding over 200 people. A stone office, consisting of 2 rooms, was added onto the rear of the club. One of those rooms was used by the editor of Der Arberter Fraint, and the other was used as a composing room. The front of the ground floor sported one window and door. The street entrance opened to a hallway which ran the length of the house. One door in the hallway led to the front room, used as dining room. A staircase leading to the first floor was in the middle of the hallway. Past the stairs, a door lead to the kitchen, (a rear ground floor room). Beyond that door, another door lead to a passage which ran along side the house. The first floor contained a room used for entertainment. The front of the room held a small stage. The only windows, three, looked out at the rear of the house. The room was decorated with plain benches, and several portraits hung on the walls. To the left of the IWEC's front entrance was Dutfield's Yard.47