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  • According to the Times, Eagle described the gates as being "about 9ft 2in wide"

    This report from the Daily News describes the club and yard;

    "At the entrance to the court are a pair of large wooden gates, in one of which is a small wicket for use when the gates are closed. At the hour when the murderer accomplished his purpose these gates were open; indeed, according to the testimony of those living near, the entrance to the court is seldom closed. For a distance of 18 or 20 feet from the street there is a dead wall on each side of the court, the effect of which is to enshroud the intervening space in absolute darkness after sunset. Further back some light is thrown into the court from the windows of a workmen's club, which occupies the whole length of the court on the right, and from a number of cottages, occupied mainly by tailors and cigarette makers, on the left. At the time when the murder was committed, however, the lights in all of the dwelling-houses in question had been extinguished, whilst each illumination as came from the club, being from the upper storey, would fall on the cottages opposite, and would only serve to intensify the gloom of the rest of the court. From the position in which the body was found, it is believed that the moment the murderer had got his victim in the dark shadow near the entrance to the court he threw her to the ground, and with one gash severed her throat from ear to ear."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
      According to the Times, Eagle described the gates as being "about 9ft 2in wide"

      This report from the Daily News describes the club and yard;

      "At the entrance to the court are a pair of large wooden gates, in one of which is a small wicket for use when the gates are closed. At the hour when the murderer accomplished his purpose these gates were open; indeed, according to the testimony of those living near, the entrance to the court is seldom closed. For a distance of 18 or 20 feet from the street there is a dead wall on each side of the court, the effect of which is to enshroud the intervening space in absolute darkness after sunset. Further back some light is thrown into the court from the windows of a workmen's club, which occupies the whole length of the court on the right, and from a number of cottages, occupied mainly by tailors and cigarette makers, on the left. 1. At the time when the murder was committed, however, the lights in all of the dwelling-houses in question had been extinguished, whilst each illumination as came from the club, 2. being from the upper storey, would fall on the cottages opposite, and would only serve to intensify the gloom of the rest of the court. From the position in which the body was found, it is believed that the moment the murderer had got his victim in the dark shadow near the entrance to the court he threw her to the ground, and with one gash severed her throat from ear to ear."

      For # 1, That is disputed by Wess, who says there were lights on in "the tenements". For point 2, other clippings also mention light being cast from the open windows in the second story of the club onto those cottages....the end result is that there was some light in that passageway, albeit not much. People should not confuse the passage with the court.

      The actual width of the gates, when using 4 to 4 1/2 foot gates, and support posts, allowing for some offset with the walls, would be in that 9 1/2 to 10ft range. Eagles guess is likely just shy of the actual width.
      Michael Richards

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

        Click to view full size image


        2. William Wess: "I reside at No. 2, William-street, Cannon-street-road, and am overseer in the printing office attached to No. 40, Berner-street, Commercial-road, which premises are in the occupation of the International Working Men's Education Society, whose club is carried on there. On the ground floor of the club is a room, the door and window of which face the street. At the rear of this is the kitchen, whilst the first floor consists of a large room which is used for our meetings and entertainments, I being a member of the club. At the south side of the premises is a courtyard, to which entrance can be obtained through a double door, in one section of which is a smaller one, which is used when the larger barriers are closed. The large doors are generally closed at night, but sometimes remain open. On the left side of the yard is a house, which is divided into three tenements,(cottages) and occupied, I believe, by that number of families. At the end is a store or workshop belonging to Messrs. Hindley and Co., sack manufacturers. I do not know that a way out exists there. The club premises and the printing-office occupy the entire length of the yard on the right side. Returning to the club-house, the front room on the ground floor is used for meals. In the kitchen is a window which faces the door opening into the yard. The intervening passage is illuminated by means of a fanlight over the door. The printing-office, which does not communicate with the club, consists of two rooms, one for compositors and the other for the editor. On Saturday the compositors finished their labours at two o'clock in the afternoon. The editor concluded earlier, but remained at the place until the discovery of the murder. "
        .
        Also from William West's testimony:

        [Coroner] How do you know that you finally left at a quarter-past twelve o'clock? - Because of the time when I reached my lodgings. Before leaving I went into the yard, and thence to the printing-office, in order to leave some literature there, and on returning to the yard I observed that the double door at the entrance was open. There is no lamp in the yard, and none of the street lamps light it, so that the yard is only lit by the lights through the windows at the side of the club and of the tenements opposite. As to the tenements, I only observed lights in two first-floor windows. There was also a light in the printing- office, the editor being in his room reading.
        [Coroner] Was there much noise in the club? - Not exactly much noise; but I could hear the singing when I was in the yard.
        [Coroner] Did you look towards the yard gates? - Not so much to the gates as to the ground, but nothing unusual attracted my attention.
        [Coroner] Can you say that there was no object on the ground? - I could not say that.
        [Coroner] Do you think it possible that anything can have been there without your observing it? - It was dark, and I am a little shortsighted, so that it is possible. The distance from the gates to the kitchen door is 18 ft.

        Comment


        • Things I've changed my mind on:

          That the Whitechapel Murders victims were likely all killed by the same man.
          That the 'canonical five' were all killed by the same man
          That the killer or killers probably acted alone
          That the police investigation likely uncovered high quality suspects and that therefore there is a high likelihood the suspects in documents such as the MacNaughten memorandum likely contain the perpetrator
          That the police investigation was entirely above board and uncorrupted
          That the man in Mrs Fiddymont's pub was very likely Annie Chapman's killer
          That the murders are completely unrelated to gang violence in the area and the product of a lone sexual murderer
          That Jacob Isenschmidt is completely exonerated by being safely under lock and key on the night of the Double Event

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seanr View Post
            Things I've changed my mind on:
            .
            .
            .

            That Jacob Isenschmidt is completely exonerated by being safely under lock and key on the night of the Double Event
            But he was, wasn't he?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
              For # 1, That is disputed by Wess, who says there were lights on in "the tenements". For point 2, other clippings also mention light being cast from the open windows in the second story of the club onto those cottages....the end result is that there was some light in that passageway, albeit not much. People should not confuse the passage with the court.
              Hardly disputed. Wess' account was from 12:15 when he left, 45 minutes before the body was discovered. Eagle said he didn't notice whether the lights in the cottages were on or not at 12:40. PC Lamb didn't mention the lights, but said that all the occupants were in bed when he questioned them. Louis, when asked if he could have seen someone in the passage said;
              "If any one had run up the yard, you would have seen him?-Yes; because it is dark just in the gateway; but further up the yard you could see anybody running or walking by the lights of the club."

              So the passage was dark from the gates to the club side-door (18 feet according to Wess) but beyond that was lit by some light from the upstairs windows.

              The actual width of the gates, when using 4 to 4 1/2 foot gates, and support posts, allowing for some offset with the walls, would be in that 9 1/2 to 10ft range. Eagles guess is likely just shy of the actual width.
              I'm not sure how you know more about the width of the gates than someone who walked through them every day. The MA account says;

              "How wide is the passage?-About nine feet."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

                But he was, wasn't he?
                Well, if the question is 'Did Jacob Isenschmidt kill Liz Stride?' or 'Did Jacob Isenschmidt kill Catherine Eddowes?', then the answer is clear. He did not.

                But if the question is 'Was Jacob Isenschmidt involved in the murder of Emma Smith?', 'Did Jacob Isenschmidt kill Martha Tabram?', 'Did Jacob Isenschmidt kill Polly Nichols?', 'Did Jacob Isenschmidt kill Annie Chapman?', 'Was Jacob Isenschmidt the man seen by Mrs Fiddymont?', then it might just be over-stating the case to claim that the answer 'No, definitely not' is proven.

                Not that I've concluded he definitely was the perpetrator of all or some of the pre-Double Event crimes, I'm just less confident than I used to be, that he definitely was not.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post

                  Well, c.d, you`d go to jail here, if you did what BS did.
                  But significantly, the same woman was found murdered 15 mins after this "attack".
                  and we do know who instigated the "attack".
                  Hello Jon,

                  Jail? Really? Here in the U.S. I would guess a small fine and/or probation maybe just a warning not to do it again.

                  How do we know who instigated the attack? Schwartz didn't speak English so he can't tell us what might have been the cause of the incident. And for all we know it might have been accidental. The B.S man could have simply been pulling on her to make her move and she let go and fell.

                  You are right that Stride was murdered shortly after and everyone has to make up their own mind on that. But Schwartz only said he saw a woman being pushed nothing more.

                  c.d.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                    Hardly disputed. Wess' account was from 12:15 when he left, 45 minutes before the body was discovered. Eagle said he didn't notice whether the lights in the cottages were on or not at 12:40. PC Lamb didn't mention the lights, but said that all the occupants were in bed when he questioned them. Louis, when asked if he could have seen someone in the passage said;
                    "If any one had run up the yard, you would have seen him?-Yes; because it is dark just in the gateway; but further up the yard you could see anybody running or walking by the lights of the club."

                    So the passage was dark from the gates to the club side-door (18 feet according to Wess) but beyond that was lit by some light from the upstairs windows.



                    I'm not sure how you know more about the width of the gates than someone who walked through them every day. The MA account says;

                    "How wide is the passage?-About nine feet."
                    I am almsot certain the work done by JTR3D.com had detected out buildings just behind the left wall, at the very least a slight enclave (see image) between that house and the cottages on the left side. If there was little to no light he could have hid in there under the cover of darkness for a few moments.

                    Click image for larger version  Name:	jtr3d.jpg Views:	0 Size:	190.6 KB ID:	726827

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by c.d. View Post

                      Hello Jon,

                      Jail? Really? Here in the U.S. I would guess a small fine and/or probation maybe just a warning not to do it again.
                      I know...I know ..we Brits are a bunch of namby pamby`s. Whereas if Berner St was in the US it would have turned into the OK Corral that night, with BS Man making a last stand behind Diemschutz`s overturned cart.



                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by erobitha View Post

                        I am almsot certain the work done by JTR3D.com had detected out buildings just behind the left wall, at the very least a slight enclave (see image) between that house and the cottages on the left side. If there was little to no light he could have hid in there under the cover of darkness for a few moments.
                        Yes indeed, these are the toilets opposite the side door, mentioned by Wess;

                        Morning Advertiser 2 Oct
                        "[Coroner]Is there a w.c. opposite your doorway?-Yes; by the side of the house divided into tenements. There are two w.c.'s."

                        If the killer was unexpectedly interrupted by Louis, this does seem like the logical place to hide.

                        Here is the 1890 Goad map showing the club and yard;

                        Click image for larger version

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                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seanr View Post

                          Well, if the question is 'Did Jacob Isenschmidt kill Liz Stride?' or 'Did Jacob Isenschmidt kill Catherine Eddowes?', then the answer is clear. He did not.

                          But if the question is 'Was Jacob Isenschmidt involved in the murder of Emma Smith?', 'Did Jacob Isenschmidt kill Martha Tabram?', 'Did Jacob Isenschmidt kill Polly Nichols?', 'Did Jacob Isenschmidt kill Annie Chapman?', 'Was Jacob Isenschmidt the man seen by Mrs Fiddymont?', then it might just be over-stating the case to claim that the answer 'No, definitely not' is proven.

                          Not that I've concluded he definitely was the perpetrator of all or some of the pre-Double Event crimes, I'm just less confident than I used to be, that he definitely was not.
                          He is a perfectly rounded individual for the things we would look for sean, I agree with you. He fits many characteristics of the first 2 Canonicals at least, and his being institutionalized before Stride is then a delineating event in the series.
                          Michael Richards

                          Comment


                          • When I was trying to establish at what point a member of the Gehringer family had been questioned during the investigation, I had assumed the connection would turn up in relation to either the murder of Emma Smith or Martha Tabram (or both), given that Martha was murdered right in front of the pub that the Gehringer family owned and Emma Smith was attacked on the next corner along from the pub*.

                            I was somewhat surprised to find The City of Norwich turned up in the investigation when the police were trying to trace Isenschmidt after Annie Chapman's murder. And then Mrs Gehringer, who was questioned, does not appear to be entirely truthful in her responses, in my opinion at least (and just possibly Sergeant Thick's).

                            I can't satisfactorily figure out what it means but it feels like it could possibly be something significant.

                            *I do wonder if those who tend to think these particular two crimes were completely unrelated to each-other, are aware how close they were geographically.

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