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  • Changing Your Mind

    I thought I’d ask for examples where posters have changed their minds on a particular topic over the years. Whether it’s on the validity of a suspect or a witness’s testimony or something like the GSG. I got to thinking about this because it’s happened to me over the last couple of days. It’s about Liz Stride.

    Ive always been pretty strongly in the ‘killed by the ripper’ camp. Never near 100% but probably 75% or so. Two prostitute throat cuttings within such a close distance and within such a short space of time and with Diemschutz as a plausible explanation for a killer being interrupted and who went on to look for another victim. For no real reason I kept thinking about the location of Liz’s murder and doubts began to grow to the extent that I’m now in the ‘not killed by the ripper’ camp. Certainly nowhere near 100% but I’ve certainly crossed over. For the time being at least

    Nichols was killed in a quiet street in an area in shadows with (as Steve Blomer pointed out in his book) numerous potential escape routes should he have been interrupted. Chapman was killed in a backyard and I have no problem at all imagining her telling her killer that she’d used the yard numerous times and never been interrupted. Eddowes was killed in a darkened corner of a square with three possible escape routes and Kelly was killed indoors (apologies for restating what you all know by the way) But Stride’s location stands out. At the side of a busy Jewish Socialist club with music going on inside and with a door just feet away through which anyone could step at any time. Just a few feet away in the other direction a large open gate with people walking past. So could I imagine the ripper mutilating Liz’s body in that location? I just can’t imagine a worse location apart from outside of a police station of course. All of the murders entailed risk. It went with the territory. But with the other 4 murders I can see the ripper judging them as manageable risks (yes, I’m someone who has had to fill in far too many dreaded risk assessment forms over the years) I just can’t see the Berner Street location as manageable but I can see someone cutting someone’s throat in the heat of an alcohol-fuelled argument perhaps?

    Theres no problem with changing your mind of course.
    Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 10-30-2019, 11:17 AM.
    Regards

    Herlock






    "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

  • #2
    I waffle on Stride all the time, mostly because I don't think there's enough to conclude she couldn't be, but neither is there enough to really say she is (a victim of JtR).

    But, when I first really started getting into the Jtr murders, I was sure it was Druit. Now, no, I think he's worth investigating only because the door is not fully shut, but I think it probably will be (sorry, I know you lean the other way, though I recognize you're not 100% on that either).

    I've changed my mind on a few smaller issues as well, finer details I guess, like at one time I was pretty convinced that the Church Passage couple had to be Eddowes and JtR, now, while I think the evidence still says they probably were, I'm not as convinced they had to be.

    I also used to think the police "could have done more", but over the years, I've realized, they actually did all they could do at the time.

    I used to think JtR had to have escaped out out Mitre Square via Dukes Place, but now I suspect he just fled the more (now) obvious route via Mttre Street (and probably north from there).

    I used to think JtR fled Buck's Row by going more or less straight west, but now I think south to Whitechapel road, to get lost in the crowd, more likely.

    And, just to be clear, tomorrow, I'm sure, I'll say "I used to think (insert one of the above) and now ... "

    Changing one's mind is not a bad thing. The whole point of research, including the reading of other's ideas, is to find out where we're wrong. If you don't think you could be wrong, stop doing research, you know it all already, leave it to those of us who haven't got there yet. Find a new hobby. Can I suggest needle point?

    - Jeff

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
      I waffle on Stride all the time, mostly because I don't think there's enough to conclude she couldn't be,...
      - Jeff
      How about the fact that she is cut once and nowhere near as deeply as either of the preceding victims, or the fact that she is left untouched on her side with knees drawn in after that single cut, indicating that her killer had no further intentions with her. That is categorically different than a killer who kills so that he can enable that pm mutilation which is his real objective, its the very reason he killed in the first place. Strides killer might just have been pissed off at her. A 2 second murder.

      Changing your mind based on acquired knowledge is all well and good, but the need to change ones mind infers that the original position is no longer tenable based on new information. The problem here is that there is already ample information, readily available all these years, to exclude Stride from this group. It should be a baseline position, not a revised one.

      Michael Richards

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

        How about the fact that she is cut once and nowhere near as deeply as either of the preceding victims, or the fact that she is left untouched on her side with knees drawn in after that single cut, indicating that her killer had no further intentions with her. That is categorically different than a killer who kills so that he can enable that pm mutilation which is his real objective, its the very reason he killed in the first place. Strides killer might just have been pissed off at her. A 2 second murder.

        Changing your mind based on acquired knowledge is all well and good, but the need to change ones mind infers that the original position is no longer tenable based on new information. The problem here is that there is already ample information, readily available all these years, to exclude Stride from this group. It should be a baseline position, not a revised one.
        The cut to her throat is near identical to that of Eddowes. The fact both of those murders occurred on the same night makes that even more telling. The lack of mutilations on Stride, sets her apart. There are enough avenues of possibilities to explain that, but they are balanced by the fact that if she's not a victim of JtR, mutilation would be unexpected. I waffle on this case all the time.

        - Jeff

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

          The cut to her throat is near identical to that of Eddowes. The fact both of those murders occurred on the same night makes that even more telling. The lack of mutilations on Stride, sets her apart. There are enough avenues of possibilities to explain that, but they are balanced by the fact that if she's not a victim of JtR, mutilation would be unexpected. I waffle on this case all the time.

          - Jeff
          Its not nearly identical Jeff, it doesn't sever both arteries, there is no nicking of the spine, and most glaringly, its 1 cut, not 2. As in Polly, Annies and Kates case. Three throat slittings happened that night, so not as rare as is made out to be.
          Michael Richards

          Comment


          • #6
            Having read many "bits and bobs" books on the subject when I was but a scamp in short pants, when I took to studying the case seriously I was a firm believer in Anderson and the Swanson marginalia. I mean, why wouldn't you be? These guys were in the know, professional, intelligent. If they both say the killer was an identified Polish Jew, and Swanson named him, then that's that right?
            Then I read more.......
            I will say though, Fido's book was and still is a great read. I loved his approach, didn't go along with all of it, but definitely moved the subject away from macabre horror to an actual investigation of real events.
            As it stands, I really don't have a preferred suspect.
            Your evening of swing has been cancelled.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi HS
              Ive changed my mind on many things:
              validity of Maxwell as a witness
              validity of lech as a suspect
              validity of koz as a suspect
              validity of torsoman and ripper being same man.
              validity of tabram as a victim

              one thing Ive never changed my mind on is stride. shes a ripper victim. peaked cap man and all that! : )
              "Is all that we see or seem
              but a dream within a dream?"

              -Edgar Allan Poe


              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

              -Frederick G. Abberline

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                Hi HS
                Ive changed my mind on many things:
                validity of Maxwell as a witness
                validity of lech as a suspect
                validity of koz as a suspect
                validity of torsoman and ripper being same man.
                validity of tabram as a victim

                one thing Ive never changed my mind on is stride. shes a ripper victim. peaked cap man and all that! : )
                That last line means that you see the least likely Ripper victim as your most probable, or at least the 1 that is certainly Jacks work. The unmutilated single cut victim.
                Michael Richards

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think she probably was a JtR victim. I always assume that it was Liz that took the murderer into the yard for business. He saw an opportune moment and went for it only then to get cold feet for some reason. I don't think that Diemschutz disturbed him, I think it was something else a few minutes before he showed up.

                  Tristan

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    But Stride’s location stands out. At the side of a busy Jewish Socialist club with music going on inside and with a door just feet away through which anyone could step at any time. Just a few feet away in the other direction a large open gate with people walking past.

                    Hello Herlock,

                    But wouldn't the location have been equally bad for a non-Jack killer as well?

                    Remember that if it was Jack we are dealing with a serial killer not a cold, calculating bank robber. He might have decided that he wanted to kill Stride and that everything else was secondary to that.

                    c.d.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                      Its not nearly identical Jeff, it doesn't sever both arteries, there is no nicking of the spine, and most glaringly, its 1 cut, not 2. As in Polly, Annies and Kates case. Three throat slittings happened that night, so not as rare as is made out to be.
                      Hello Michael,

                      One or cut or two, he still accomplished his mission which was to kill her. Would he have really cared how many cuts he inflicted?

                      c.d.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by c.d. View Post

                        Hello Michael,

                        One or cut or two, he still accomplished his mission which was to kill her. Would he have really cared how many cuts he inflicted?

                        c.d.
                        I have no personal stake in how many cuts he makes, just that 1 cut... and only to kill, not to mutilate, is not Ripper like at all.
                        Michael Richards

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                          But Stride’s location stands out. At the side of a busy Jewish Socialist club with music going on inside and with a door just feet away through which anyone could step at any time. Just a few feet away in the other direction a large open gate with people walking past.

                          Hello Herlock,

                          But wouldn't the location have been equally bad for a non-Jack killer as well?

                          Remember that if it was Jack we are dealing with a serial killer not a cold, calculating bank robber. He might have decided that he wanted to kill Stride and that everything else was secondary to that.

                          c.d.
                          Strides killer could have been there all night, he needn't have an "opportunity" per se, just a reason, or a perceived reason, to kill Liz. I do believe its possible, and perhaps probable, that a hired thug for security that night might be this killer. William Morris was set to speak that night, a polarizing character with his politics, and threats had been issued if he did. Security would have been booked well before they quickly switched the speaker to Eagle. A thug is all that we need to look for for a single cut murder. Serial mutilators are not needed to answer this murders questions.
                          Michael Richards

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hello Herlock,

                            But wouldn't the location have been equally bad for a non-Jack killer as well?
                            Hello c.d.

                            Id say not if it was a spur of the moment thing. The result of a drunken argument perhaps with the killer not thinking about things like the location.
                            Regards

                            Herlock






                            "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              For me the problem with analysing the throat cutting is that we might simply be creating a mystery where none exists. Circumstances change and have an effect. We surely can’t expect a killer to cut in exactly the same way every time? The sharpness of the knife, perhaps the killer was nursing an injury, perhaps he was panicked by something, perhaps a victim was stronger and so struggled more, perhaps clothing had an effect? I’m not saying that all of these examples are applicable to Stride but personally I’m very wary of reading too much into cuts.
                              Regards

                              Herlock






                              "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                              Comment

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