Changing Your Mind

[mpriestnall]

I thought I’d ask for examples where posters have changed their minds on a particular topic over the years. Whether it’s on the validity of a suspect or a witness’s testimony or something like the GSG. I got to thinking about this because it’s happened to me over the last couple of days. It’s about Liz Stride.

Ive always been pretty strongly in the ‘killed by the ripper’ camp. Never near 100% but probably 75% or so. Two prostitute throat cuttings within such a close distance and within such a short space of time and with Diemschutz as a plausible explanation for a killer being interrupted and who went on to look for another victim. For no real reason I kept thinking about the location of Liz’s murder and doubts began to grow to the extent that I’m now in the ‘not killed by the ripper’ camp. Certainly nowhere near 100% but I’ve certainly crossed over. For the time being at least

Nichols was killed in a quiet street in an area in shadows with (as Steve Blomer pointed out in his book) numerous potential escape routes should he have been interrupted. Chapman was killed in a backyard and I have no problem at all imagining her telling her killer that she’d used the yard numerous times and never been interrupted. Eddowes was killed in a darkened corner of a square with three possible escape routes and Kelly was killed indoors (apologies for restating what you all know by the way) But Stride’s location stands out. At the side of a busy Jewish Socialist club with music going on inside and with a door just feet away through which anyone could step at any time. Just a few feet away in the other direction a large open gate with people walking past. So could I imagine the ripper mutilating Liz’s body in that location? I just can’t imagine a worse location apart from outside of a police station of course. All of the murders entailed risk. It went with the territory. But with the other 4 murders I can see the ripper judging them as manageable risks (yes, I’m someone who has had to fill in far too many dreaded risk assessment forms over the years) I just can’t see the Berner Street location as manageable but I can see someone cutting someone’s throat in the heat of an alcohol-fuelled argument perhaps?

Theres no problem with changing your mind of course.

And there's no problem with changing your mind back again!

Martyn

[Herlock Sholmes]

And there's no problem with changing your mind back again!

Martyn

True enough Martyn.

[Michael W Richards]

For me the problem with analysing the throat cutting is that we might simply be creating a mystery where none exists. Circumstances change and have an effect. We surely can’t expect a killer to cut in exactly the same way every time? The sharpness of the knife, perhaps the killer was nursing an injury, perhaps he was panicked by something, perhaps a victim was stronger and so struggled more, perhaps clothing had an effect? I’m not saying that all of these examples are applicable to Stride but personally I’m very wary of reading too much into cuts.

We can expect Herlock that someone who has established a pattern that is carried over 2 consecutive murders within 2 weeks would likely continue or escalate the damages inflicted. Stride is the opposite. She has the least amount of injury, despite it being a mortal wound, of any alleged Ripper victim. There was no struggle, but there was evidence that he held her scarf knotted while he cut, which means…...she wasn't unconscious when cut. Its likely Polly and Annie were. Again, the coroner suggested a cut "while falling" in an attack that lasts 2 seconds.

As for changing ones mind about these cases, I will admit that I have never seen any reason to question my core beliefs about the Stride murder, and they were formed 30 plus years ago.

[JeffHamm]

Its not nearly identical Jeff, it doesn't sever both arteries, there is no nicking of the spine, and most glaringly, its 1 cut, not 2. As in Polly, Annies and Kates case. Three throat slittings happened that night, so not as rare as is made out to be.

Back in April I posted this comparison below, and I'll re-post it here, with a bit of editing (back in April the reports on Eddowes were a bit ambiguous to me about whether she had two cuts, one being superficial, or one cut that started superficially. Since that discussion I'm satisfied it was two cuts). I've also made a few other minor word changes for clarity:

- Jeff

-----------------------------------------

Hi,

I want to present first the inquest testimony that describes the throat cutting injuries for Nichols, Chapman, Stride, and Eddowes. Then present a brief discussion on my readings of these.

Nichols:
Testimony of Mr. Henry Llewelly, surgeon, of 152, Whitechapel-road
-On the left side of the neck, about 1in. below the jaw, there was an incision about 4in. in length, and ran from a point immediately below the ear. On the same side, but an inch below, and commencing about 1in. in front of it, was a circular incision, which terminated at a point about 3in. below the right jaw. That incision completely severed all the tissues down to the vertegrae. The large vessels of the neck on both sides were severed. The incision was about 8in. in length.” (Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 35).

Chapman:
Testimony of Mr. George Bagster Phillips, divisional surgeon of police, 2, Spital-square
-He noticed that the throat was dissevered deeply; that the incisions through the skin were jagged, and reached right round the neck.” (Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 86).
-There were two distinct, clean cuts on the left side of the spine. They were parallel from each other and separated by about half an inch.” (Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 87)

Stride:
Testimony of Mr. George Bagster Phillips, divisional surgeon of police, 2, Spital-square
-There was a clean-cut incision on the neck. It was 6in. in length and commenced 2½in. in a straight line below the angle of the jaw, ¾in. (note ½ in. is stated in Begg, Fido, and Skinner, 1996; Pg 351, but in all other respects the quote is identical) over an undivided muscle, and then becoming deeper, dividing the sheath. The cut was very clean and deviated a little downwards. The artery and other vessels contained in the sheath were all cut through. The cut through the tissues on the right side was more superficial, and tailed off to about 2in. below the right angle of the jaw. The deep vessels on that side were uninjured.” (Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 158).

Eddowes:
Testimony of Frederick Gordon Brown, 17 Finsbury Circus, Surgeon of City of London Police Force:
-The throat was cut across to the extent of about 6 or 7 inches. A superficial cut commenced about an inch and ½ below the lobe and about 2½ inches behind the left ear and extended across the throat to about 3 inches below the lobe of the right ear. The big muscle across the throat was divided through on the left side – the large vessels on the left side of the neck were severed – the larynx was severed below the vocal chords. All the deep structures were severed to the bone the knife marking intervertebral cartilages – the sheath of the vessels on the right side was just opened. The carotid artery hand a fine hole opening. The internal jugular vein was opened an inch and a half not divided. The blood vessels contained clot. ”(Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 205/206)

Ok, that's the testimony from the inquests that I have available to me.

Briefly, we have more details with regards to the wounds for Stride and Eddowes. Nichols has two cuts, one smaller (4 inches) than the other (encircled the neck). I would suggest the smaller was probably done first, and would direct the initial blood away from the killer on her right side. This is the important one for comparison between the cases.

With Chapman, there were fewer details, but the description reads to me like two circular cuts, rather than one smaller one and one that circles the entire neck. They are, however, located in similar locations as the two described on Nichols, and the presentation is minimal enough that we should be cautious about accepting my reading as an accurate description of both incisions. But if that is considered, then this is different from the 1 small 1 large wound to Nichols.

I'll skip to Eddowes first:
The cut is described as 6-7 inches in length and there's a superficial cut mentioned as well. The deeper of the two (6-7 inches) did not damage the structures on the right side to any great extent (only a small hole in the right carotid artery is mentioned). This injury corresponds in many respects with the smaller, 4in. cut, performed on Nichols. Most probably the superficial cut came 2^nd, but given the injuries also inflicted upon Eddowes' eyelids, etc, this 2^nd injury may not have been inflicted until some other stage of the attack rather than at the point where JtR was cutting the throat to ensure death. I base that on its description of being superficial. That being said, it is most probable that this more superficial cut was made just after after the first one. The deeper cut, being primarily to the left, appears to serve the function of ensuring the blood sprays/drains away from from JtR.

Now, with regards to Stride. The injury to her throat is, within the levels of variation of the other throat injuries. It is, in many respects, a near re-telling of the slightly more severe injury inflicted upon Eddowes. Both are in the range of 6 inches, though Eddowes’s may be as long as 7 that's going to reflect in part that Eddowes wound is a bit deeper. Nichols, however, had the smaller injury described as 4 inches, so shorter. With both Stride and Eddowes the vessels on the right side are either uninjured (Stride) or only slightly so (Eddowes, a small hole is mentioned on the right). A smaller initial throat cut, appears to be the initial attack JtR followed with both Nichols and Eddowes. The details for Chapman are insufficiently supplied to know for sure if this was followed, although it tends to read in a way that suggests it was not, and that both injuries were the deep encircling cuts. JtR, therefore, shows quite a bit of variability (4 inches to encircling the neck, and with Eddowes one deep cut and one superficial). However, the commonalities between the overall mutilation pattern between Eddowes and Chapman in particular (similar placement of vicera over the shoulders), link these two cases. The injuries to Nichols also links her to Chapman and Eddowes. The only wound inflicted upon Stride reads so much like that of Eddowes, that to completely discount Stride as a Ripper victim is unwarranted. There is enough evidence in that injury to warrant her consideration, particularly when combined with other aspects (similarly public locations, lack of noted disturbances, time of the attack, similar descriptions of people seen, victimology, and so forth). At the same time, the lack of the attack escalating into mutilations, the lack of a second throat injury, deep or superficial, and the possibility that the injury inflicted could be extremely common; it may be that most throat cuttings produce a description as per Stride and Eddowes which is something I do not know. If this injury description is highly common, and it's just what throat cutting tends to look like (in terms of position, depth, extent), then that similarity is of little value with regards to linkage. But if the similarity of description between Stride and Eddowes injury is far more similar than the description one would have when comparing two random throat cutting murders, then that would point towards a common hand. Noting the difference between Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes, all of whom are generally considered well linked, we see that the variability between wounds by what is considered the same hand, but on different nights, seems greater than that shown between two separate injuries committed on the same night, possibly by the same hand.

So, I do think there is more than enough physical evidence available to warrant considering Stride a possible victim of JtR but it is not be enough to rule out the alternative, that she is not part of the series. But I think it is unsafe to suggest one or the other of those conclusions must be right.

That means, when we consider the possibility that she is a victim of JtR, an explanation for the lack of escalation seems required. The times given (elsewhere) for various sightings and discovery of her body, do not preclude Deimshutz arriving at a time that might have caused JtR to leave. It's not definitive, but it can't be ruled out. Also, BS was seen in a confrontation with Stride shortly before she was found murdered in that location. Descriptions of BS are similar to that of a man seen with Eddowes shortly after (again, consistent, but not definitive). That would suggest the pushing of Stride was the beginnings of a murderous assault, that JtR was not going to stop, but now knowing he had been spotted as well in a physical confrontation, may have been enough by itself to spook him. We can never know why he left for sure, nor does it matter, if the above physical evidence is deemed sufficient to warrant including Stride as a victim of JtR. If it is, then any plausible explanation for why JtR leaves that scene is good enough to fill in the gaps of the story even if we could tell it different ways and never know which, if any, were true. Why he left could be considered "irrelevant" if the above were sufficient to inform us that JtR was there, and for some reason, he left.

Anyway, that's just me.

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Back in April I posted this comparison below, and I'll re-post it here, with a bit of editing (back in April the reports on Eddowes were a bit ambiguous to me about whether she had two cuts, one being superficial, or one cut that started superficially. Since that discussion I'm satisfied it was two cuts). I've also made a few other minor word changes for clarity:

- Jeff

-----------------------------------------

Hi,

I want to present first the inquest testimony that describes the throat cutting injuries for Nichols, Chapman, Stride, and Eddowes. Then present a brief discussion on my readings of these.

Nichols:
Testimony of Mr. Henry Llewelly, surgeon, of 152, Whitechapel-road
-On the left side of the neck, about 1in. below the jaw, there was an incision about 4in. in length, and ran from a point immediately below the ear. On the same side, but an inch below, and commencing about 1in. in front of it, was a circular incision, which terminated at a point about 3in. below the right jaw. That incision completely severed all the tissues down to the vertegrae. The large vessels of the neck on both sides were severed. The incision was about 8in. in length.” (Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 35).

Chapman:
Testimony of Mr. George Bagster Phillips, divisional surgeon of police, 2, Spital-square
-He noticed that the throat was dissevered deeply; that the incisions through the skin were jagged, and reached right round the neck.” (Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 86).
-There were two distinct, clean cuts on the left side of the spine. They were parallel from each other and separated by about half an inch.” (Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 87)

Stride:
Testimony of Mr. George Bagster Phillips, divisional surgeon of police, 2, Spital-square
-There was a clean-cut incision on the neck. It was 6in. in length and commenced 2½in. in a straight line below the angle of the jaw, ¾in. (note ½ in. is stated in Begg, Fido, and Skinner, 1996; Pg 351, but in all other respects the quote is identical) over an undivided muscle, and then becoming deeper, dividing the sheath. The cut was very clean and deviated a little downwards. The artery and other vessels contained in the sheath were all cut through. The cut through the tissues on the right side was more superficial, and tailed off to about 2in. below the right angle of the jaw. The deep vessels on that side were uninjured.” (Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 158).

Eddowes:
Testimony of Frederick Gordon Brown, 17 Finsbury Circus, Surgeon of City of London Police Force:
-The throat was cut across to the extent of about 6 or 7 inches. A superficial cut commenced about an inch and ½ below the lobe and about 2½ inches behind the left ear and extended across the throat to about 3 inches below the lobe of the right ear. The big muscle across the throat was divided through on the left side – the large vessels on the left side of the neck were severed – the larynx was severed below the vocal chords. All the deep structures were severed to the bone the knife marking intervertebral cartilages – the sheath of the vessels on the right side was just opened. The carotid artery hand a fine hole opening. The internal jugular vein was opened an inch and a half not divided. The blood vessels contained clot. ”(Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 205/206)

Ok, that's the testimony from the inquests that I have available to me.

Briefly, we have more details with regards to the wounds for Stride and Eddowes. Nichols has two cuts, one smaller (4 inches) than the other (encircled the neck). I would suggest the smaller was probably done first, and would direct the initial blood away from the killer on her right side. This is the important one for comparison between the cases.

With Chapman, there were fewer details, but the description reads to me like two circular cuts, rather than one smaller one and one that circles the entire neck. They are, however, located in similar locations as the two described on Nichols, and the presentation is minimal enough that we should be cautious about accepting my reading as an accurate description of both incisions. But if that is considered, then this is different from the 1 small 1 large wound to Nichols.

I'll skip to Eddowes first:
The cut is described as 6-7 inches in length and there's a superficial cut mentioned as well. The deeper of the two (6-7 inches) did not damage the structures on the right side to any great extent (only a small hole in the right carotid artery is mentioned). This injury corresponds in many respects with the smaller, 4in. cut, performed on Nichols. Most probably the superficial cut came 2^nd, but given the injuries also inflicted upon Eddowes' eyelids, etc, this 2^nd injury may not have been inflicted until some other stage of the attack rather than at the point where JtR was cutting the throat to ensure death. I base that on its description of being superficial. That being said, it is most probable that this more superficial cut was made just after after the first one. The deeper cut, being primarily to the left, appears to serve the function of ensuring the blood sprays/drains away from from JtR.

Now, with regards to Stride. The injury to her throat is, within the levels of variation of the other throat injuries. It is, in many respects, a near re-telling of the slightly more severe injury inflicted upon Eddowes. Both are in the range of 6 inches, though Eddowes’s may be as long as 7 that's going to reflect in part that Eddowes wound is a bit deeper. Nichols, however, had the smaller injury described as 4 inches, so shorter. With both Stride and Eddowes the vessels on the right side are either uninjured (Stride) or only slightly so (Eddowes, a small hole is mentioned on the right). A smaller initial throat cut, appears to be the initial attack JtR followed with both Nichols and Eddowes. The details for Chapman are insufficiently supplied to know for sure if this was followed, although it tends to read in a way that suggests it was not, and that both injuries were the deep encircling cuts. JtR, therefore, shows quite a bit of variability (4 inches to encircling the neck, and with Eddowes one deep cut and one superficial). However, the commonalities between the overall mutilation pattern between Eddowes and Chapman in particular (similar placement of vicera over the shoulders), link these two cases. The injuries to Nichols also links her to Chapman and Eddowes. The only wound inflicted upon Stride reads so much like that of Eddowes, that to completely discount Stride as a Ripper victim is unwarranted. There is enough evidence in that injury to warrant her consideration, particularly when combined with other aspects (similarly public locations, lack of noted disturbances, time of the attack, similar descriptions of people seen, victimology, and so forth). At the same time, the lack of the attack escalating into mutilations, the lack of a second throat injury, deep or superficial, and the possibility that the injury inflicted could be extremely common; it may be that most throat cuttings produce a description as per Stride and Eddowes which is something I do not know. If this injury description is highly common, and it's just what throat cutting tends to look like (in terms of position, depth, extent), then that similarity is of little value with regards to linkage. But if the similarity of description between Stride and Eddowes injury is far more similar than the description one would have when comparing two random throat cutting murders, then that would point towards a common hand. Noting the difference between Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes, all of whom are generally considered well linked, we see that the variability between wounds by what is considered the same hand, but on different nights, seems greater than that shown between two separate injuries committed on the same night, possibly by the same hand.

So, I do think there is more than enough physical evidence available to warrant considering Stride a possible victim of JtR but it is not be enough to rule out the alternative, that she is not part of the series. But I think it is unsafe to suggest one or the other of those conclusions must be right.

That means, when we consider the possibility that she is a victim of JtR, an explanation for the lack of escalation seems required. The times given (elsewhere) for various sightings and discovery of her body, do not preclude Deimshutz arriving at a time that might have caused JtR to leave. It's not definitive, but it can't be ruled out. Also, BS was seen in a confrontation with Stride shortly before she was found murdered in that location. Descriptions of BS are similar to that of a man seen with Eddowes shortly after (again, consistent, but not definitive). That would suggest the pushing of Stride was the beginnings of a murderous assault, that JtR was not going to stop, but now knowing he had been spotted as well in a physical confrontation, may have been enough by itself to spook him. We can never know why he left for sure, nor does it matter, if the above physical evidence is deemed sufficient to warrant including Stride as a victim of JtR. If it is, then any plausible explanation for why JtR leaves that scene is good enough to fill in the gaps of the story even if we could tell it different ways and never know which, if any, were true. Why he left could be considered "irrelevant" if the above were sufficient to inform us that JtR was there, and for some reason, he left.

Anyway, that's just me.

- Jeff

great post Jeff
however, Im in the she was a ripper victim camp (OK at 90%-but that's pretty high).

The clincher for me is peaked cap man, and Abberlines opinion on it (see my sig). there was also the anon church st sighting around the time and location in between stride and eddowes where a man was seen siting on some steps, wiping his hands, trying to shield his face. he was wearing a peaked cap. and what makes this sighting particularily interesting is it came out before any of the other witness statements that night who describe a man wearing a peaked cap. lending to its credibility and that the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.

[JeffHamm]

great post Jeff
however, Im in the she was a ripper victim camp (OK at 90%-but that's pretty high).

The clincher for me is peaked cap man, and Abberlines opinion on it (see my sig). there was also the anon church st sighting around the time and location in between stride and eddowes where a man was seen siting on some steps, wiping his hands, trying to shield his face. he was wearing a peaked cap. and what makes this sighting particularily interesting is it came out before any of the other witness statements that night who describe a man wearing a peaked cap. lending to its credibility and that the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.

Thanks Abby Normal.

For me, the problem with peaked cap as a commonality is that peaked caps were extremely common. You could pick any two men at random and have a high probability they were wearing a peaked cap, dark clothes, and had a mustache. It certainly means the same person could have been seen, but it's also highly probable that 3 different people could be seen and produce that description (which includes more details than just peaked cap). So again, there's nothing inconsistent with it being the same person, but it's also not sufficient to conclude it was the same person in my view.

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Abby Normal.

For me, the problem with peaked cap as a commonality is that peaked caps were extremely common. You could pick any two men at random and have a high probability they were wearing a peaked cap, dark clothes, and had a mustache. It certainly means the same person could have been seen, but it's also highly probable that 3 different people could be seen and produce that description (which includes more details than just peaked cap). So again, there's nothing inconsistent with it being the same person, but it's also not sufficient to conclude it was the same person in my view.

- Jeff

yes

You could pick any two men at random and have a high probability they were wearing a peaked cap,

but this isn't just two men and it isn't at random. were talking at least four sightings of suspects actually seen with the victims the night of the double event.
the chances that these were unrelated and or that none of them was actually the ripper is practically nil as far as im concerned.
then you have Abberlines opinion-and that should add a lot of extra weight.
the ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event.

[Herlock Sholmes]

We can expect Herlock that someone who has established a pattern that is carried over 2 consecutive murders within 2 weeks would likely continue or escalate the damages inflicted. Stride is the opposite. She has the least amount of injury, despite it being a mortal wound, of any alleged Ripper victim. There was no struggle, but there was evidence that he held her scarf knotted while he cut, which means…...she wasn't unconscious when cut. Its likely Polly and Annie were. Again, the coroner suggested a cut "while falling" in an attack that lasts 2 seconds.

As for changing ones mind about these cases, I will admit that I have never seen any reason to question my core beliefs about the Stride murder, and they were formed 30 plus years ago.

Can you form a pattern in just two murders though? Even if we don’t go for the suggestion that Diemschutz interrupted the killer might not something else have spooked him into getting away?

[c.d.]

I just can’t see the Berner Street location as manageable but I can see someone cutting someone’s throat in the heat of an alcohol-fuelled argument perhaps?

Hello Herlock,

That is certainly a possibility. But the signs of that appear to be missing. No one in the club hears an argument after Schwartz has left even though they stated that the windows in the club were open and they were certain they would have heard one. No marks on Stride's face to indicate she might have been slapped during an argument. Her clothes are not ripped or torn. Only one cut to the throat and no cuts to the body which would indicate her killer had been in a rage.

The B.S. man goes on to kill her after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. Not the brightest of moves. Had he left the scene he could only be accused of pushing a woman. Stride could have gone willingly with him into the passageway but if he were in a rage what could she expect from that? Most likely a severe beating. And if she was taken into the passageway against her will and trying to push him away how did the cachous survive that being wrapped in tissue paper?

I just don't see enough evidence for an argument scenario.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I just can’t see the Berner Street location as manageable but I can see someone cutting someone’s throat in the heat of an alcohol-fuelled argument perhaps?

Hello Herlock,

That is certainly a possibility. But the signs of that appear to be missing. No one in the club hears an argument after Schwartz has left even though they stated that the windows in the club were open and they were certain they would have heard one. No marks on Stride's face to indicate she might have been slapped during an argument. Her clothes are not ripped or torn. Only one cut to the throat and no cuts to the body which would indicate her killer had been in a rage.

The B.S. man goes on to kill her after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. Not the brightest of moves. Had he left the scene he could only be accused of pushing a woman. Stride could have gone willingly with him into the passageway but if he were in a rage what could she expect from that? Most likely a severe beating. And if she was taken into the passageway against her will and trying to push him away how did the cachous survive that being wrapped in tissue paper?

I just don't see enough evidence for an argument scenario.

c.d.

I certainly accept your points c.d. and perhaps my change of viewpoint could in pert be because I’m projecting how I’d be thinking in those circumstances. For me it’s hard to think of a worse place to kill and mutilate a woman. I’m also wary of BS man for the same reason that I’m wary of Hutchinson as a suspect. The fact that the ripper remained undetected doesn’t indicate to me a reckless man although luck could have played a part of course. I tend to think that if he’d been noticed at the spot he’d have moved on.

[c.d.]

Hello Herlock,

Glad to see you are keeping an open mind. I agree that it was a bad place for a murder. But again, Jack might have decided that he wanted to kill Stride not just any woman and if that meant taking a chance so be it.

I agree that Jack does not seem like a reckless man and the B.S. man going on to kill Stride after being seen was indeed reckless.

c.d.

[Robert]

I don't think BS man did kill Stride. But to me it's not terribly important, because after being rather pro-Stride as a JTR victim, board discussion led to a change of mind, leaving me putting the chances at around 60-40 in favour of Stride, and a decision to not let details of Stride's murder be the basis of any theory I might formulate.

[JeffHamm]

I certainly accept your points c.d. and perhaps my change of viewpoint could in pert be because I’m projecting how I’d be thinking in those circumstances. For me it’s hard to think of a worse place to kill and mutilate a woman. I’m also wary of BS man for the same reason that I’m wary of Hutchinson as a suspect. The fact that the ripper remained undetected doesn’t indicate to me a reckless man although luck could have played a part of course. I tend to think that if he’d been noticed at the spot he’d have moved on.

It's all a bit strange with Stride. The cachous, no matter who kills her (BS, someone after him, whether or not it's JtR), are one anomaly. Somehow she was put to the ground and her throat cut, and yet still has the cachous in her hand. Bruising on her shoulders seems consistent with Schwartz's testimony (she was turned and pushed down towards the alley), and apart from her throat injury, there's really nothing to suggest a second attack on her physically. As c.d. points out, no arguments are heard, no bruises like a slap to the face, etc.

Why someone, after being spotted by Schwartz and pipeman, would go on to kill Stride, is hard to understand. But then, if BS is JtR (big if, and not saying it's a fact he was), then that might be consistent with how JtR seems to have gone on to kill Chapman despite possibly being seen by Long, or Eddowes after being seen by Lawende, Levy, and Harris, or Kelly after being seen by Hutchinson. Obviously, each of those "sightings" is questionable and debated, but in a way, if any of them are a sighting of JtR, it does appear he wasn't put off by being seen with the victim shortly beforehand. That is a sign of a disorganized offender, which in some ways might suggest she was attacked by JtR. I can't see "random stranger annoyed by being solicited, so pushes her" would be inclind to then murder her in the same circumstances - that to me only makes sense if BS = JtR. But of course, we don't know that BS did go on to kill her.

Schwartz's sighting is reported to be at 12:45, and Dr. Blackwell (who arrived at 1:10 by his watch), estimated she was dead for 20-30 minutes (again, based upon touch, where he reports the hands were cold, the legs and face were slightly warm, and the chest quite warm and notes it was a mild evening). We know this isn't an accurate method but as the body has not cooled completely that's a bit different from the Chapman case (and note, on a mild evening, within half an hour, the exposed areas are either cold, or only slightly warm - the morning was cold for Chapman, and because she was mutilated, a lot more of her body was exposed to cooling, so being cold within an hour is likely in Chapman's case, but with Stride, whose clothing was still intact, body heat is retained, etc). It's interesting that Blackwell's estimation corresponds to Schwartz's time though.

If we consider 12:45, then clearly Diemshutz isn't the cause of the interruption that has JtR flee the scene, but given the noise from the club could be more than enough to spook him, I'm not sure any further explanation is required.

Of course, all of the above is very debatable (I don't really put much stock in Blackwell's estimate to be clear, but I think knowing the body hadn't become cold is more restrictive than finding that it has gone cold). Schwartz's sighting isn't even well established, we don't know if BS does go on to kill Stride, and so forth. I think, and have seen arguments, that produce a very different picture of events. And just to point out, Edward Johnson, Blackwell's assistant, testified he arrived 3 or 4 minutes before Dr. Blackwell, and found all the body warm except the hands, and also stated that Dr. Blackwell arrived at 1:16. So we see, different people feeling the same body, report different ideas of what was warm, etc. Also, we now have two different times for Dr. Blackwell's arrival (1:10 or 1:16). The margins of error for body warmth, and times, is wider than many seem to accept, even when watches are involved. PC Smith says he arrived on the scene at 1, having previously patrolled the area around 12:30-12:35, viewed the body, and went for the ambulance and the Blackwell's assistant arrived as he was leaving (probably fitting more with Blackwell's time of 1:10 then). But of course, people are already there when he arrived and the Doctor had been sent, suggesting Diemshutz's arrival is before 1 o'clock, which means Diemshutz may have arrived closer to 12:45, re-introducing him as the interruption after all!

Sigh.

Stride has, and continues to be, the hardest of the cases for me to draw any inferences from.

- Jeff

[Spider]

How about the fact that she is cut once and nowhere near as deeply as either of the preceding victims, or the fact that she is left untouched on her side with knees drawn in after that single cut, indicating that her killer had no further intentions with her. That is categorically different than a killer who kills so that he can enable that pm mutilation which is his real objective, its the very reason he killed in the first place. Strides killer might just have been pissed off at her. A 2 second murder.

Changing your mind based on acquired knowledge is all well and good, but the need to change ones mind infers that the original position is no longer tenable based on new information. The problem here is that there is already ample information, readily available all these years, to exclude Stride from this group. It should be a baseline position, not a revised one.

".... indicating that her killer had no further intentions with her"

Are we not forgetting here that the killer was interrupted by Diemschutz entering the yard with his horse and cart? Rather he had the intention but not the time, and Stride was a work in progress.

[Sam Flynn]

".... indicating that her killer had no further intentions with her"

Are we not forgetting here that the killer was interrupted by Diemschutz entering the yard with his horse and cart? Rather he had the intention but not the time, and Stride was a work in progress.

It has long been considered a possibility that the killer was interrupted, but it's not a fact. In terms of Stride's murder being a work in progress, the purported interruption would have to have happened at the very point that the killer was cutting her throat, as the wound was neither as deep nor as extensive as in the other Ripper murders, death being caused by the "partial severance of the left carotid artery". I find the idea of a practiced killer like "Jack" being interrupted mid knife-stroke, to the extent that he failed to push the blade deep enough to completely sever just one artery on one side, rather hard to believe.