Changing Your Mind

[Joshua Rogan]

(Sorry for the 80s band reference there).

- Jeff

I thought they were men without hats?

[JeffHamm]

I thought they were men without hats?

Ah yes, that's right. Nothing to see here, move along.

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Hi Jeff

Were peaked caps that common?
Yes, most caps had a peak, but Victorians knew their hats and if it they described a cheese cutter, a deer stalker or a peaked cap, that`s what they saw
For example, of all the men seen with Stride that night, how many wore peaked caps ?
I think it`s only two, and if you look at their descriptions by the different witnesses they were probably the same man.
In fact, on that night the men in peaked caps were:

the man seen by Marshall
BS man
Church Lane Man
Lawende`s Man

It`s interesting that following the peaked cap men seen that night, leads us from one murder site to another.

Hi Jon
Bingo. I don't buy the peaked caps were common argument. people wore all types-bowlers, wide awakes etc etc., or none- so the chances that all these suspects were different men just happen to wear the same hat is about zero.

[Abby Normal]

It has long been considered a possibility that the killer was interrupted, but it's not a fact. In terms of Stride's murder being a work in progress, the purported interruption would have to have happened at the very point that the killer was cutting her throat, as the wound was neither as deep nor as extensive as in the other Ripper murders, death being caused by the "partial severance of the left carotid artery". I find the idea of a practiced killer like "Jack" being interrupted mid knife-stroke, to the extent that he failed to push the blade deep enough to completely sever just one artery on one side, rather hard to believe.

what about if they were already in a tussle when her throat was cut? as in perhaps Schwartz actually witnessed the deadly assault on stride but just didn't realize it. BS man knows hes been seen at this point and bolts.

[Abby Normal]

As far as I can work out, a peaked cap wasn't a particular style of cap, it was just a cap with a peak. So, a deerstalker is a peaked cap, so is a soldier's cap, etc. At least, I have never been able to find "peaked cap" defined as a specific style. Basically, someone saying a peaked cap is differentiating them from a brimmed hat (like a bowler). This could be simply because they can't recall the detail, but recall it was something with a peak, rather than a brim. I could be wrong, but nobody has ever demonstrated that "peaked cap", in Victorian times, meant "this specific type of hat". As a result, it's like saying someone wore "boots", but that doesn't tell you if they were Doc Martins, etc.

I think we all have our own opinion of what it means, and I tend to picture a cloth cap type thing, but just because I picture that doesn't mean that's what a witness is referring to. Basically, two witnesses could say "he wore a peaked cap" and yet the caps they saw could be very different.

As I say, I could be wrong, and if someone has a source to document that "peaked cap" was used to mean something specific in 1888, then that would be useful to know.

- Jeff

a peaked cap-"like something a sailor would wear", is a lot more specific than boots lol. poor analogy. men wore all kind of hats back then-wide awakes, bowlers, high hats etc etc. the witnesses all said specifically-peaked cap. not hat-cap, peaked-- that obviously narrows it down....a lot.

[Abby Normal]

But, as I wrote, witnesses were very specific with their cheese cutters, deer stalkers, skull caps. So, if you`re correct in that there isn`t actually a peaked cap then it`s add`s more significance to the different witnesses describing a peaked cap, or a cap with a peak on it.
Anyway, it`s significant enough for me to strongly consider that the peaked cap men on that night could be the same man.

Of all the witnesses described throughout the Whitechapel Murders who else was specifically described as wearing a peaked cap or a cap with a peak on it ?

PC smith-peak front and back, and long (chapman) also a deer stalker type. different yes, but peaked cap nonetheless.

but I get your point-you would think if they were so ubiquitous, there would be many more sightings.

[Abby Normal]

Ah yes, that's right. Nothing to see here, move along.

- Jeff

you sure its not Men at Work Without Hats? ; )

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jon
Bingo. I don't buy the peaked caps were common argument. people wore all types-bowlers, wide awakes etc etc., or none- so the chances that all these suspects were different men just happen to wear the same hat is about zero.

Hi Abby,

But "peaked cap" is not a particular type of cap. Hats were a standard part of dress, so most men would be wearing a hat of some sort. Peaked caps is like saying "dog", while "bowler" is like saying "poodle". If the three men were described as having "dogs", that doesn't mean they all had poodles, although they might have of course. So here are three hats all of which are accurately described as "Peaked caps", and of course, there are more (I didn't put in a deer stalker, for example, which has a peak both front and back). The middle one, for example, might fit "appearance of a sailor", which is absent from other descriptions, and so one might be more inclined to suggest those other peaked caps were closer to the first or third example, making them different hats with the same common description.

I'm not saying this as if it's a fact, what I'm saying is the descriptions are not so specific that we can be confident that the three descriptions must be of the same person. They could be, of course, but they very easily might be different people.



- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

you sure its not Men at Work Without Hats? ; )

I'm not sure of much from 80s anymore, and probably for the best! ha ha

[Abby Normal]

I'm not sure of much from 80s anymore, and probably for the best! ha ha

you and me both-lots of "fond" hazy memories!

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

But "peaked cap" is not a particular type of cap. Hats were a standard part of dress, so most men would be wearing a hat of some sort. Peaked caps is like saying "dog", while "bowler" is like saying "poodle". If the three men were described as having "dogs", that doesn't mean they all had poodles, although they might have of course. So here are three hats all of which are accurately described as "Peaked caps", and of course, there are more (I didn't put in a deer stalker, for example, which has a peak both front and back). The middle one, for example, might fit "appearance of a sailor", which is absent from other descriptions, and so one might be more inclined to suggest those other peaked caps were closer to the first or third example, making them different hats with the same common description.

I'm not saying this as if it's a fact, what I'm saying is the descriptions are not so specific that we can be confident that the three descriptions must be of the same person. They could be, of course, but they very easily might be different people.



- Jeff

thanks Jeff
yes there were still diferent kinds of "peaked caps" its still so specific though, and lawende (and I believe one other) specifically said something a sailor would wear and or a sailors cap-so I would probably opt for the middle. Interestingly that's exactly the cap that chapman is wearing in the photo! (with knives hung up on the wall behind him!)

[Wickerman]

She heard A pony and cart, she didn't say that she heard Louis pass by or that she saw who was in the cart. The cart and horse were to be offloaded in the yard then taken to George Yard for stabling, she may have heard the horse and cart leaving.

The difference is called the Doppler effect, any sound coming towards you is markedly different than the same sound going away from you.
Surely you can distinguish between a 'clip-clop' coming towards you (getting louder) from a 'clip-clop' going away from you (getting quieter).

[JeffHamm]

thanks Jeff
yes there were still diferent kinds of "peaked caps" its still so specific though, and lawende (and I believe one other) specifically said something a sailor would wear and or a sailors cap-so I would probably opt for the middle. Interestingly that's exactly the cap that chapman is wearing in the photo! (with knives hung up on the wall behind him!)

Yah, I guess we differ on how specific it strikes us. To me, I can only think of 3 ways to classify a hat, peaked, brimmed, or "tam" (no peak or brim, Tam's not great as one doesn't call a toque a type of tam, and so forth, but I'm not sure there's a general name for them?). Since "tams" don't show up as far as I can recall, what we generally get are a mix of peaked and brimmed hats (a wideawake hat is a brimmed hat, for example), with various degrees of specificity within those categories. So, while I would not be surprised if JtR did wear a peaked hat of some sort (hats were worn by the vast majority of men, so no doubt JtR wore one, and peaked hats were very common, so wouldn't be surprised if he did wear one - but neither would I be surprised if he wore a brimmed hat too). The problem is, the witness descriptions that we do have are similar only at the categorical level, not the specific hat level. The other issue is that differences between witness descriptions at the specific detail level are often a result of having to rely upon their memory of an event/sighting for which they had no real reason to pay a lot of attention to.

So again, while the descriptions could be of the same person, given they match on very common details (dark clothes, average height, mustache, and hats), those descriptions pretty much describe a very large percentage, maybe even the majority, of men who would be in the area, making our confidence that these are independent descriptions of the same man low. Yes, possible, but not compelling enough to me to suggest it's worth running too far with.

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Yah, I guess we differ on how specific it strikes us. To me, I can only think of 3 ways to classify a hat, peaked, brimmed, or "tam" (no peak or brim, Tam's not great as one doesn't call a toque a type of tam, and so forth, but I'm not sure there's a general name for them?). Since "tams" don't show up as far as I can recall, what we generally get are a mix of peaked and brimmed hats (a wideawake hat is a brimmed hat, for example), with various degrees of specificity within those categories. So, while I would not be surprised if JtR did wear a peaked hat of some sort (hats were worn by the vast majority of men, so no doubt JtR wore one, and peaked hats were very common, so wouldn't be surprised if he did wear one - but neither would I be surprised if he wore a brimmed hat too). The problem is, the witness descriptions that we do have are similar only at the categorical level, not the specific hat level. The other issue is that differences between witness descriptions at the specific detail level are often a result of having to rely upon their memory of an event/sighting for which they had no real reason to pay a lot of attention to.

So again, while the descriptions could be of the same person, given they match on very common details (dark clothes, average height, mustache, and hats), those descriptions pretty much describe a very large percentage, maybe even the majority, of men who would be in the area, making our confidence that these are independent descriptions of the same man low. Yes, possible, but not compelling enough to me to suggest it's worth running too far with.

- Jeff

no worries but ill run with abberline on this one. you dont give him saying the suspect wore a peaked cap any weight either?

[c.d.]

what about if they were already in a tussle when her throat was cut? as in perhaps Schwartz actually witnessed the deadly assault on stride but just didn't realize it. BS man knows hes been seen at this point and bolts.

Hello Abby,

That is possible but seems extremely unlikely. Schwartz would have been grilled very hard on that point. Since Swanson allows for the possibility of another killer it must have been very clear from Schwartz that Stride was alive when he ran off.

c.d.