Astrology and Ripperology

[JSchmidt]

The only arcane laws I know about are how to use the RAK (German rules of alphabetic cataloguing). And even that topic gets me to do some more studies.
*dons an iron pothelm for the flying bricks the "Good Doctor" is constantly dodging*

[23Skidoo]

Beer tastes good.

A little off topic but at least it is understandable.

Is it just me or have the boards been infiltrated by people attempting to show off their depth of knowledge of arcane matters?

Oh cool, I used the word arcane. Maybe there is hope for me.

c.d.

Depends on the beer. Don't worry I'll attempt to keep the arcanity to this thread only. Not to everyone's taste I agree, and no attempt here to show off, just a counter to Dr X's annoying claims to supreme knowledge of the universe, such pseudo enlightenment can't go unchallenged, someone might mistake it for sense. Its clear I alone have absolute knowledge, isn't it?

However my supreme enlightenment tells me lager tastes like piss and guinness is pure genius....

[Magpie]

I know you were and I'm agreeing. I'm simply saying there's no physical causation that led to whatever poetic or whimsical reasons they may have had in mind (certainly not in Dr X's ontology anyway), and no clues in the speck of light leading to a rational attribution either, its an arbitrary attribution without physical or rational cause. Likewise Pluto was allegedly named after the Walt Disney character who they happened to see while looking for a name. Therefore its all random, they might as well as picked it out of a hat, thus its divination, maybe

I think what Sam is saying is that astronomers gave it a arbitrary name based on certain conventions (ie a goddess), but then astologers ascribe characteristics to that body based on the name.

For instance, would the astrologers have claimed the planet/star/moon had the same influences if the astrologers had named it "Eris", or would they have immediately claimed characteristics that were more in line with Eris

[23Skidoo]

If there is no physical force at work, what is at work then? And should it not at least conform to meaningful laws, that can be both reproduced and repeated (If I do it, it get the same result and and the same constellation has the same meaning.)?
If not, then we are indeed in the field of randomness and arbitrary attribution of values. Which means we could also flip a coin or use /dev/random and then imagine/attribute a reading to it.

Yes exactly. The crux of the argument is that Dr EX is a Physicalist, he believes the universe is entirely physical and all causes are material ones, with everything outside this being random and meaningless (I'm assuming coherency to your argument of course Doc ) This is the dominant view of our culture and has been internalised by most people as common sense, its hard for anyone to think differently these days, as you demonstrate.

I'm championing the opposing view, both because I find it interesting and because it annoys the Doc, that the universe is not entirely physical. Its the old mind - body problem, you cant solve it by eliminating or prioritising one side of the equation by becoming a scientific Materialist or a dreamy Idealist, nor does Dualism make much sence. Mind and Matter are entwined from this perspective This view sometimes includes the idea that everything random contains a hidden pattern.

Trouble with proving it is that the pattern is one of meaningfulness, and that's always relatively subjective and ambiguous, whereas physical patterns are objective and non-ambiguous (fortunately for science and technology).
Science is designed to detect objective patterns not subjective so its hard to apply to the former. Though its subjectivity is limited and the possible meanings constrained (a star sign can mean N different things depending on context and background informtion) so some kind of 'science' might be applicable. This is what astrology *attempts*, not always successfully.

My own opinion is that I believe nothing till an absolute truth is presumed, then I 'believe' the opposite....

[Sam Flynn]

For instance, would the astrologers have claimed the planet/star/moon had the same influences if the astrologers had named it "Eris", or would they have immediately claimed characteristics that were more in line with Eris

Indeed, Mags. Of course, time moves on and thousands of asteroids have since been discovered and named, meaning that the supply of "catchy" mythological names has run out. Astronomers have thus moved on to naming them after their discoverers, or famous people etc. There are some totally wacky names now being allocated, some of which I've posted below with suggested horoscopes:

Armandhammer - you have a frothy personality, and a dazzling smile
Assisi - a chirpy disposition, almost saintly, you care about the creatures around you
Bolshoi - the epitome of grace and balance, but unafraid of taking daring leaps when the need arises
Bouillabaisse - a person of many parts, a complex mixture of the profound and superficial
Confucius - whatever you say today, people will remember it for years to come
Dali - you have a melted clock for a face
Messerschmidt - be careful of your flighty nature, or people will be quick to shoot you down
Michaelpalin - you have a tendency to pine, and must learn to look on the bright side more often
Onderlicka - your servile toadying endears you to no-one
Rara - you are Russia's greatest love-machine
Tomjones - flying underwear will plague you today; take an umbrella
Robinwilliams - zany and unpredictable, people love you; but beware of alcohol, drugs and bodily hair

[23Skidoo]

I think what Sam is saying is that astronomers gave it a arbitrary name based on certain conventions (ie a goddess), but then astologers ascribe characteristics to that body based on the name.

For instance, would the astrologers have claimed the planet/star/moon had the same influences if the astrologers had named it "Eris", or would they have immediately claimed characteristics that were more in line with Eris

I'm suggesting that if the asteroid really 'astrologically signifies' the same thing as the arbitrary Roman goddess archetype 'mythically signifies', then it was actually impossible for them to have named it anything else other than Juno, due to the 'defining influence' on all random events, because all their conventions are arbitrary and therefore randomly chosen, even past precedents are rooted randomness, as in the partially random decision of the ancients to equate planets with deities. Its a slightly circular argument but no more so than Dr Ex's (which is my deepest point).

Convictions cause convicts.

[23Skidoo]

Yep, but all have meanings, even if you use numbers you couldnt escape meaning, so in theory all these could be applicable to astrology.

I think the skeptic approach is more anti-religion than pro-science, they use science to counter religion, and assume that if mythology is involved theres somekind of hidden religious agenda, and so react to counter it. Thus this kind of argument has been floating around for sometime

Whereas this actually says more about the skeptic, because most of us don't take religion seriously enough to need disproving, anymore than I need a theory that disproves the tooth fairy. All the astrologers I know tend to come from a long line of atheists, or at least agnostics, while lots of skeptics come from religious familes against whom they rebel.

I'm not suggesting thats true of anyone here, but I think thats the source of this kind of argument.

Indeed, Mags. Of course, time moves on and thousands of asteroids have since been discovered and named, meaning that the supply of "catchy" mythological names has run out. Astronomers have thus moved on to naming them after their discoverers, or famous people etc. There are some totally wacky names now being allocated, some of which I've posted below with suggested horoscopes:

Armandhammer - you have a frothy personality, and a dazzling smile
Assisi - a chirpy disposition, almost saintly, you care about the creatures around you
Bolshoi - the epitome of grace and balance, but unafraid of taking daring leaps when the need arises
Bouillabaisse - a person of many parts, a complex mixture of the profound and superficial
Confucius - whatever you say today, people will remember it for years to come
Dali - you have a melted clock for a face
Messerschmidt - be careful of your flighty nature, or people will be quick to shoot you down
Michaelpalin - you have a tendency to pine, and must learn to look on the bright side more often
Onderlicka - your servile toadying endears you to no-one
Rara - you are Russia's greatest love-machine
Tomjones - flying underwear will plague you today; take an umbrella
Robinwilliams - zany and unpredictable, people love you; but beware of alcohol, drugs and bodily hair

[23Skidoo]

Are there any emphemarises for these asteroids, could be fun?

Indeed, Mags. Of course, time moves on and thousands of asteroids have since been discovered and named, meaning that the supply of "catchy" mythological names has run out. Astronomers have thus moved on to naming them after their discoverers, or famous people etc. There are some totally wacky names now being allocated, some of which I've posted below with suggested horoscopes:

Armandhammer - you have a frothy personality, and a dazzling smile
Assisi - a chirpy disposition, almost saintly, you care about the creatures around you
Bolshoi - the epitome of grace and balance, but unafraid of taking daring leaps when the need arises
Bouillabaisse - a person of many parts, a complex mixture of the profound and superficial
Confucius - whatever you say today, people will remember it for years to come
Dali - you have a melted clock for a face
Messerschmidt - be careful of your flighty nature, or people will be quick to shoot you down
Michaelpalin - you have a tendency to pine, and must learn to look on the bright side more often
Onderlicka - your servile toadying endears you to no-one
Rara - you are Russia's greatest love-machine
Tomjones - flying underwear will plague you today; take an umbrella
Robinwilliams - zany and unpredictable, people love you; but beware of alcohol, drugs and bodily hair

[JSchmidt]

Now we are treading on the thin ice of destiny if "influences outside the ken of ordinary science" cause not only inexplicable subjective findings but even force people not believing in them to conform to them. Sorry, but that does not fly in my opinion.
While I can see that people that believe in astrology conform their behaviour to their belief system, I see no reasonable way that the arbitrary system of astrology would influence astronomers in any other way than to conform to a common naming scheme.

[23Skidoo]

Hello Sam!

And certainly the Mayas didn't call them "Juno".

Or even "Saturn" as Saturn and "Jupiter" as Jupiter...


All right, quite seriously; and they were brilliant astronomers!

All the best
Jukka

Didn't call what 'Juno'?

The Saturn / Jupiter point is actually quite interesting. Further research might determine whether semantic influence effects are universal or just local to belief systems. Of course under globalism we are all Westerners now, for good or ill.

As for the Mayan's I'm no expert in their system, but it seems their mythic views of the sun, venus and mars were very similar to our own broad myths, differing only in emphasis from the classical myths of modern astrology. While saturn and jupiter were associated by them with war and death, something western astrologers would agree on for saturn but hold the exact opposite for jupiter.

I'm not sure if they were any better astrologers than the Mesopotamians, despite their trendiness amongst hippies, they just obsessed more on venus, which like us they associated with life and death and peace and war, emphasing the latter where we emphasise the former, and made elabourate calenders based on its helical rising.

[23Skidoo]

A fasinating diversion but I want to get back to Jack

Feel free to email me privately if you want to discuss this more.

[23Skidoo]

The idea is the name just pops into their head 'randomly'

Now we are treading on the thin ice of destiny if "influences outside the ken of ordinary science" cause not only inexplicable subjective findings but even force people not believing in them to conform to them. Sorry, but that does not fly in my opinion.
While I can see that people that believe in astrology conform their behaviour to their belief system, I see no reasonable way that the arbitrary system of astrology would influence astronomers in any other way than to conform to a common naming scheme.

[Sam Flynn]

Are there any emphemarises for these asteroids, could be fun?

I don't know if any published ephemeris could contain them all, Skidoo. The astronomy software package I use has many hundreds of asteroids in its database, but none of the above - sadly!

[23Skidoo]

And finally to prove ambiguity, here's some alternative definitions.

Armandhammer - you are a confused ideologue.
Assisi - you may incline to overly religious utopianism.
Bolshoi - a tendency to wear tights
Bouillabaisse - something basically fishy
Confucius - prone to pretentious statements of assumed wisdom
Dali - you maybe insane or a genius
Messerschmidt - tends to shoot people down
Michaelpalin - a tendency to get others to pay for your global tourism
Onderlicka - who??
Rara - a fetish for short skirts
Tomjones - cheeesy archetype
Robinwilliams - beware the influence of the media

[Doctor X]

It is curious how some like to pretend reality is a matter of "philosophy" or "opinion."

If it was, I would be in Australia . . . and not avoiding guard dogs! More specifically, I would be in an Australian[Right! Stop that!--Ed.]

Yes . . . of course.

Yours fantastically,

--J.D.