Who is this "notorious woman"?

[DRoy]

I've got a gut feeling that the picture of the Ripper - who wouldn't have known when or where the photo was taken because it was taken with a detective camera - is a concoction very like the psychic woman being able to recognise the Ripper on sight - reading his thoughts no doubt, and intended to scare the Ripper somewhat - like the threat of bloodhounds

They both sound like Forbes Winslow creations to me, him trying to be clever and provoke some reaction or communication from the true Ripper, or even scare him off altogether

Hi Nemo,

I would be surprised if it was Winslow's creation. It seems odd that he would send this story to a Pittsburgh paper unless it was to flush out someone who had recently gone to Pittsburgh from London that he suspected. I haven't found another story anywhere that coincides with this one.

Yes there are pieces of the story that can be picked up from anywhere. But there are also parts of the article that seem matter-of-fact and from a source or sources that other papers may not have been privy to. The writer either made up half the article for $hits & giggles or someone with Pittsburgh ties decided to share this as an exclusive. I find it hard to believe that no other paper would print a Ripper story if one was available.

Cheers
DRoy

[Nemo]

Hi Beowulf

I've seen it suggested that if the Maybrick diary is an old fake, then Forbes Winslow is a candidate for being the creator, given his support of Florence and his apparent penchant for fake Ripper letters

He's definitely one of my favourite period characters and someone I think worthy of research

Thanks Deb, I worked out it must have been between 1900 and 1910 but I didn't realise Bella died in 1901

Do you think she might have mentioned that she had taken a photo of the Ripper? Maybe not if nothing came of it

I've got a gut feeling that the picture of the Ripper - who wouldn't have known when or where the photo was taken because it was taken with a detective camera - is a concoction very like the psychic woman being able to recognise the Ripper on sight - reading his thoughts no doubt, and intended to scare the Ripper somewhat - like the threat of bloodhounds

They both sound like Forbes Winslow creations to me, him trying to be clever and provoke some reaction or communication from the true Ripper, or even scare him off altogether

It's a favourite theory of mine that nobody seems to agree with, but it makes more sense to me than him blatantly forging evidence and the like as he was actually a respected authority on insanity, specialising somewhat in criminal insanity (and psychology)

[Beowulf]

I'm not sure it has to be either of them? Maybe just a man who liked those kind of whiskers and wore glasses ?
Although I still think it is probably meant to represent Barnardo and perhaps it's someone's idea of a joke?

I didn't mean either of them is JTR. I meant to r/o one or both AS JTR. Just looking to cut the list of suspects down.

I have never heard of Forbes Winslow and so I looked him up, interesting character. I'd like to hear what he had to say on D'Onston, since there was some speculation that he was leaving the asylum at night and able to be a ripper suspect. Interesting he was called on for his expertise in the case of Mrs. Maybrick. If that were so it's interesting he did he not suspect Maybrick back then as the Ripper.

Btw; I love that picture of Chicago May, a real flapper.

[Debra A]

There's a more flattering picture of Chicago May from the serialisation of her autbiography in the The Milwaukee Sentinel - Aug 21, 1927

[Debra A]

If Chicago May returned from the US in 1900 the dealings with Bella had to have been between 1900-1901, as Bella died in 1901.
I have a copy of Bella's will (somehwhere!) and the bit about leaving money to the church isn't true, she left money to her only son, and also her siblings and friends.

[Nemo]

This is a very informative site about Chicago May

http://heroinesofhistory.wikispaces.com/Chicago+May

I didn't know much about her but she looks to be a very interesting character in her own right

She was born in Ireland in 1871 and appears to have been in London to meet Bella when she was 17 to 18 years old

She emigrated to America when she was 18

Why then does she say that Bella remarked about "Yanks", but thought she (Chicago May) was Irish - when she had actually just come from Ireland and hadn't visited America yet

The remark about Bella leaving her money to the church etc would indicate that Chicago May kept up to date with what was happening in Bella's life after she (Chicago May) had emigrated

Is that likely?

PS Scratch the above comment - it appears Chicago May returned to London at a later date

I'll read her biography to get more familiar with her history

[Nemo]

Yes, and though I don't think the woman would have offered such an explanation herself, the woman with the detective camera was supposedly encouraged in the hunt by the rewards, possibly being a fourth female detective

I was reading a thesis on the attitude toward and prevalence of female detectives in literature in the LVP which made interesting reading

Though there was the usual discriminatory remarks against the fair sex, the concept was quite popular and numerous female detectives appeared

[Debra A]

Thanks for all that, Nemo and Dave (I was just checking out both of yours fabulous FW discussion on forums and am going back there now)

I suppose we have to find out now if Bella Freeman was thought-reader?!

It could very well be that we have two different women here (three with murder Mag who's story is along a similar path but not related, I think too). Bella is linked because of two separate mentions of her- Chicago May had her as a Whitechapel fence who was using her fortune to hunt the Ripper after a victim was killed on her property and Charles Booth described her as the 'notorious' Bella Freeman in his survey notes-making her a notorious woman hunting down the Ripper!
Chicago May herself was said to have used detective cameras in her blackmailing 'work'.

Forbes Winslow's lady does sound different.

[Nemo]

Here's the description of Forbes Winslow's psychic sidekick

Interestingly, an alternative article relating the same information, posted by Dave James is a combination of a mention of the woman and also a photograph of the Ripper submitted to the police. It is headlined "Portrait of Jack the Ripper produced" - "A lunatic's find" - "The work of a female detective"

this is from the Aberdeen Weekly Journal
Tuesday, September 24, 1889 posted by Howard Brown on JtRForums

After putting forward the suggestion that John Cleary, from the Pinchin St torso case, fitted a description of a man known as "Dodger" who appeared to be the accomplice of the lodger Ripper suspect GWB, the article continues...

"This may be only a coincidence; still it is regarded as a remarkable one by many, and notably by a lady who yesterday took part in a conference on the subject of the murders. This lady, from the first murder to the present, has interested herself in the hue and cry, and made herself personally acquainted with the leading features of the crimes. She has acted as an amateur detective, and discovered many leading clues, which she has duly communicated to the police, only to be repulsed. Possessing a full knowledge of the clue upon which Dr Forbes Winslow is working, and being a well-known thought-reader, she is understood to distinctly affirm a connection between John Cleary and the "Dodger". She is convinced that once she sees the murderer she will be able to identify him. This lady has lent valuable aid in the investigation and is as ardent a believer in the correctness of the clue as the discoverer"

Dave's article continues with the story of the coffee stall holder (who had written a complete history of the case...) who produced the picture of George Sims when he says "I am quite certain I know the man...I have talked with him many times, and I can show you his photograph"

Murder Mag (not MEG) was the woman who dedicated her life to finding the Ripper because he had killed her friend

I'm wondering if these stories became somewhat mixed

I'd agree that the affluent Bella Freeman is a good candidate for the woman with the detective camera

It is stated that this woman was encouraged by the large reward(s) offered which would have been later in the series than from the first murder

LFW's psychic woman sounds quite respectable and possibly affluent

LFW's woman is a well known thought reader apparently, which is why I was searching for her among the Spiritualists

[Nemo]

I'm not sure really Deb

I'm pretty sure that LFW's psychic woman is not "Murder Meg" and I don't think she is Bella Freeman either, though I'm less certain about that

I think the woman in Australia who wrote to LFW about a suspect was described as notorious, in the context that she badgered the local police with Ripper stories and was a known drunk (the police called her "Jack the Ripper")

Even though there was press interest in LFW's claims to be able to identify and catch the Ripper, I haven't seen much mention of the conference

I would also have thought the conference would be advertised and might name the psychic woman in the advert or in any article mentioning it later

[Debra A]

There's a possibility that this woman is the one connected with Forbes Winslow's Ripper conference in 1889, who claimed to have seen the Ripper in a psychic vision

If it is her, then taking a photo of someone who looked like the Ripper in her vision isn't very encouraging

Also, the conference was to discuss the clues surrounding LFW's lodger suspect, G Wentworth Bellsmith, and the woman seemed to be the person putting herself forward as the one who would recognise the Ripper (I think he Forbes Winslow was trying to scare the Ripper and/or his accomplice but that's another story)

This is surprising as a Mr Callaghan was also attending the conference and he was GWB's landlord, and Forbes Winslow claimed he had seen the Ripper himself on the steps of St Pauls, so if anyone should recognise him in the future, it would be them

Hi Nemo,
You don't think this 'notorious' woman is Bella Freeman then? Interesting.
I got the impression the nototrious woman being described in this article took photographs on her 'detective camera', although the actual 'latest photograph' of the Ripper doesn't have to be from the same reported source, I agree.

[Nemo]

There's a possibility that this woman is the one connected with Forbes Winslow's Ripper conference in 1889, who claimed to have seen the Ripper in a psychic vision

If it is her, then taking a photo of someone who looked like the Ripper in her vision isn't very encouraging

Also, the conference was to discuss the clues surrounding LFW's lodger suspect, G Wentworth Bellsmith, and the woman seemed to be the person putting herself forward as the one who would recognise the Ripper (I think he Forbes Winslow was trying to scare the Ripper and/or his accomplice but that's another story)

This is surprising as a Mr Callaghan was also attending the conference and he was GWB's landlord, and Forbes Winslow claimed he had seen the Ripper himself on the steps of St Pauls, so if anyone should recognise him in the future, it would be them

[Debra A]

I suppose the questions to ask are (1) were either in the vicinity of the murders at the time (2) were either able to be ruled out in any way?

(3) why was the notorious woman so positive she knew this man to be JTR? I've not seen that listed, what was her idea of positive identification?

I think Morrell's forehead is too large and top hair too short to be the same.

I'm not sure it has to be either of them? Maybe just a man who liked those kind of whiskers and wore glasses ?
Although I still think it is probably meant to represent Barnardo and perhaps it's someone's idea of a joke? Barnardo did seem to part his hair with an axe, which JTR obviously didn't going by the picture.

Thanks for the pointer with the McMorrell name, Chris.

[Debra A]

If this site is correct, the style is narrowed down to something called "wide chops"

http://centuryofthebeard.blogspot.co...ide-chops.html

Chris G mentioned once that they were called Dundreary whiskers.
They were also known as Picadilly weepers. They may have been a bit old fashioned by 88? Their popularity seems to have been between 1840-70, unless they were enjoying a revival.

[Beowulf]

Thanks Nemo and Beowulf!
I thought Barnardo was in the bag as he had the whiskers, the suit plus edging, glasses and to top it all the mealy mouth ( I know a mealy mouth is a character trait and not an actual type of mouth but I always imagine a mealy mouther to have severe, thin, pursed lips too. )
And now this Dr Morrell has all the traits too! Drat.

I suppose the questions to ask are (1) were either in the vicinity of the murders at the time (2) were either able to be ruled out in any way?

(3) why was the notorious woman so positive she knew this man to be JTR? I've not seen that listed, what was her idea of positive identification?

I think Morrell's forehead is too large and top hair too short to be the same.