Before it's too late

[sdreid]

Hi Archaic,

I can't help you with that - perhaps someone else knows.

[Stephen Thomas]

Wasn't it the story years ago (1959-ish?) that McNaghten's grandson had a stash of his grandpa's archival material? Another Ripper letter, etc... anything ever come of that?
Has it all been brought forward by now, or not?

That's a new one on me, Archaic.

Where did you get that from?

Sounds like it could be the 'hot potato' quote from someone else.

[Archaic]

Farson, 1959??

Hi, Stephen & Stan. Oh dear- well, let's test my memory. Right off the top of my head, I believe it was mentioned in a very old Casebook thread I found on the archived cd... somewhere between 1998 & 2003, I believe.

I think that a forum member had asked about 'Farson's Guide to the British People'- not sure that's the correct name- but it was a 2 part TV show in (again a stab) 1959? The name in my head is Gerald McNaghten, grandson of the JTR McNaghten. Some friend of Farson claimed he had SEEN this material with his own eyes, which is why I took mental note of it.

I will try to look it up for you later; I just came in to the house to get a cold drink as its a miraculously sunny day- gotta run; my horses are grazing in the yard & probably eating all the lilac blossoms about now! (They got my lovely Clematis flowers 2 days ago, so I am being extra-vigilant)

*I will check back with you later today & see if I can find it. See ya, Archaic

[Archaic]

McNaghtens Grandson- Update

Attn: Stan & Stephen- Hi, I finally found the old 2002 CB Archive post on Farson, but though I had the other info on him pretty right, those posts did NOT refer to McNaghtens Grandson; it had to have been another one. (sorry if I gave you a bum steer; as I said, I was working only from memory. )

I read many dozens of the old archived threads one night, & I KNOW I read one about McNaghten's Grandson being said to have a stash of his Grandpa's materials. I do believe his first name was 'Gerald' or 'Gerard'; it struck me because it sounded Irish. The ''Eyewitness'' who claimed to have physically seen these papers was a friend of the Author or Reporter in question, so it was believed.

The thread conversation then went on to something else. The 1998-2003 segment of the CB Archive has a very rudimentary Search function, which brought up dozens of threads for every key word I entered. I have the CD version; maybe if you have the DVD & more advanced computer skills you can find it. *My advise is to look for the grandson by name- Gerald or Gerard McNaghten. It might be in a thread that discusses the Journalists & Authors who first revived interest in JTR & interviewed witnesses & families...I'm guessing in the 1920s-1960s period.

Unfortunately, I thought that this was such a 'bombshell' its existence would have been either proven or discredited long ago; I was awfully surprised when you said you were unfamiliar with the story!

By the way, while I was using my CD, I was wishing I could bookmark some of the individual threads, because there are zillions... Then this wouldn't happen again. It would even help if I could mark the ones I've read. Can anybody suggest to me a way I might be able to do this? I have Windows XP.
Thanks again, Archaic

[Archaic]

IMPORTANT UPDATE re: Macnagthen's Grandson

Hi, sorry for back-to-back posts, but I did find other references to what I remembered having seen mentioned on the old CB Archive.
The topic is discussed in the books Jack the Ripper by Stewart Evans & Paul Gainey, and Ripperology by Robin Odell. (By the way, neither book discounts the story, which I find significant.)

The grandson's name was Gerald Melville Donner; his mother was Sir Melville's daughter Julia. The version of the Macnagthen papers we have now is apparently not the only version that was floating around in the MacNagthen family! The version we have went to Scotland Yard. The other version, (supposedly the original ?) was still in the private position of Gerald Melville Macnagthen as late as the time of his death in 1968.

Journalist Philip Loftus is the one who reported actually seeing it. He in turn told his friend Daniel Farson. (So my memory of the thread details was actually closer than I had thought, much to my relief!)

On Oct 7, 1972, Philip Loftus wrote an article for The Guardian, commenting upon Farson's book. In this article, Loftus also stated that he himself had seen the Macnagthen Papers in the possession of Gerald Melville Donner, the grandson. GDM passed away in 1968, I believe in India, and according to both books cited, the present whereabouts of this archival material is unknown.

Personally, I'd be awfully surprised if: a.) the Macnagthen family did not preserve it, and b.) If researchers haven't approached every living member of the extended Macnagthen family and generally moved Heaven & Earth trying to locate it!

*If there have been any further developments on the wherabouts or contents of the GMD Archive, I would greatly appreciate being informed of them. Hope this helps. -Thanks, Archaic

[sdreid]

What was the reason Macnagten would have written this personal version? Was it some sort of rough draft? It apparently wasn't a copy of his official document or it would have been word for word. It looks like Macnagten took this business very seriously even though it appears to be mostly an opinion piece to me.

[Triplesod]

Like I said, if it's possible for a cop involved in the case to live until 1971, it's also possible that Jack could have also. I'm not saying that it's likely.

Say he only lived until 1929 and died the same year as Abberline, I bet there are still people alive who met Frederick. They would only have to be in their 80s now which is pretty much the normal lifespan for people who survive early childhood.

Hmm - Wonder what Abberline might have told one of them.

Well, if he did meet someone who is in their 80's now, I presume he would have told them little more than "coochy coochy coo! Awww, aren't you a cute little thing?"

[Triplesod]

Well, you would think if such actually knew they would say something before the icy hand of death

Instead of after?

EDIT: Wow! Sorry. Didn't realise those posts were so old when I commented.

More proof that no matter what happens, I should never, ever bother reacting!

[Tom_Wescott]

Well, if he did meet someone who is in their 80's now, I presume he would have told them little more than "coochy coochy coo! Awww, aren't you a cute little thing?"

That's hilarious, TS. Good one.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[sdreid]

There are people still alive who were in there 30s when Abberline died. My dad would have been 9 and is in his 80s. I was 24 when Inspector Keaton died.

[Triplesod]

There are people still alive who were in there 30s when Abberline died. My dad would have been 9 and is in his 80s. I was 24 when Inspector Keaton died.

I understand what you meant Stan. I apologise, I was being pedantic and maybe a little facetious. I hope I didn't appear disrespectful, as I have never had anything but the utmost respect for your posts and knowledge and the enthusiasm you put into the case.

I am less than half your age, with less than half your motivation, passion, vigour and understanding for/of the murders. I am jealous of that!

(this odd little man definitely represents thumbs up to you and not sticking the finger up at you )

All the best mate and keep up the great work!

[sdreid]

No worries TS - didn't mean to come off as defensive.

[sdreid]

I suppose descendants of some of the early authors like Matters and Woodhall could also have some material that's not generally known and that they are unaware of.

[sdreid]

It's not too late to preserve/restore the Coles murder site, I don't think.

[sdreid]

More specifically, I wonder if some of the early authors might have interviewed still living witnesses and kept those notes somewhere for us to find.