Was Alcohol Available After the Pubs Closed?

[Hunter]

My neck of the woods was famous for its moonshiners, bootleggers and clubs that had open bars, gambling and 'professional women'; all of this at a time when everything like this was illegal. Yet, everyone knew where these places were. The local law was paid off and when the state or federal authorities tried to make trouble, someone usually got tipped off beforehand. If a local sheriff came along and tried to 'play it straight', money was spent to elect someone else or he was dealt with more harshly; perhaps the name Buford Pusser might ring a bell.

I learned how to drive by taking my father and my uncle down a winding back country road on a Friday night to a place called 'Tomcat's'... a little cinder block building at the end of a gravel road in the woods. We'd pull up to a small window at the side. A burly old man with a towel slung over his shoulder would appear and take their order; usually a few half pints of 'Old Crow'. I'd drive while they sampled some of it on the way home. The more they drank, the more they'd test my driving skills by putting a foot on the accelerator while I'd frantically fight the steering wheel (which had no power steering) around the sharp curves of a county road that was barely wide enough for two vehicles to pass at a slow speed. Man... what the do-gooders would make of that now days. But, to this day, I've never been in an accident that I caused...and I've been driving now for nearly forty years.

Back to Victorian East London... one of the social writers- maybe Greenwood or Williams... can't remember- wrote about visiting one of the 'Sly Houses' on a Sunday morning off Whitechapel Road. Its 'front' was a barber shop that took in patrons for a shave. They had quite an assembly line set up for running the customers through. When finished, certain patrons would be asked if they wanted to 'see the scarlet runners'. They were led out back into an alley where the curious vines were growing; past them and into the back of a pub where other clean shaven patrons were having a round in the kitchen.

It was a well ordered setup; the customers were told to stay quiet and a lookout was posted in an upper story window to keep watch for a 'blue' who might cause trouble. If such an emergency arose, the lookout would signal down to the proprietor; the pewter mugs would be swept away and the owner's wife would quickly display a breakfast setting until the 'all clear' was given.

Yep, David, folks are always pretty much going to do what they want to do and someone will find a way to make a profitable business out of it. Free enterprise will always win out over any form of government or social standards because human nature trumps everything put in its path.

[DVV]

I don't think this is highjacking, it completes what Hunter rightly said about the club. For sure it was available anytime.

[mariab]

For real? Only been to South Africa so far.
(And again, highjacking occurs.) ;-)

[DVV]

Home-made beers are always light in Africa. Home-distilled are

[mariab]

The Imperial Club? Come on Maria... That was the club Harris, Levy and Lawende were leaving when they reportedly saw Kate Eddowes with a man at the entrance to Church Passage.

Oops! Demon newbie strikes again. For some reason I misled myself into thinking of some anarchist club. Thank you so much for the thread Hunter. I'm still not properly informed on TONS of details pertaining to the Mitre Square case.

I've lived in Africa for years and the social conditions are obviously similar to Europe 19th century in this respect. In fact, the rules and effects of poverty are universal. {...} After the "official bars" are close, nothing easier than knocking here and there to get glasses in private (and poor) houses that would serve you local and incredibly cheap drinks.

When I was in Kayamandi, a township outside Cape Town, the local “pub“ was a shack where they only served locally made beer which hardly had any alcohol. Though I'm sure that in "harder" townships they sell local moonshine and stuff.

[DVV]

I wasn't joking, it was available anytime.

I've lived in Africa for years and the social conditions are obviously similar to Europe 19th century in this respect. In fact, the rules and effects of poverty are universal.
Women sell matches and flowers on the streets (ready to sell themselves as well, if you ask), there are common lodging houses, etc etc. After the "official bars" are close, nothing easier than knocking here and there to get glasses in private (and poor) houses that would serve you local and incredibly cheap drinks.

[Hunter]

Hi Maria,

I don't know if payment for drinks at the IWMEC was obtained in the usual way, but it is certain some method was contrived to finance it. Staying one step ahead of authorities inspires ingenious methods.

The Imperial Club? Come on Maria... That was the club Harris, Levy and Lawende were leaving when they reportedly saw Kate Eddowes with a man at the entrance to Church Passage.

Here is probably the best thread with information on it.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1363&highlight=Imperial+Club

What I was driving at in an earlier post was that after the public houses closed, activity still went on at these places and were a natural attraction for men wanting one more drink or certain women to do business outside as a result... even pickpockets and thieves. If you'll recall, Levy expressed concern about some of the characters around (recalling the man and woman at the entrance to Church Passage) and going home alone- as they started down Duke Street- and his consternation was probably well founded.

[mariab]

Thanks Hunter.
It's a fact that the IWEC engaged in cigarette contraband and that they served drinks during the festivities held in their Club. The police was on to them about this big time. Do we know if members/patrons of the IWEC payed for their drinks? Also, during their festivities (as in the night of September 29 1888) does anyone know if they played music themselves or used hired musicians?

The Imperial Club is a totally new concept for me. Where can I read about this?

Not sure where Wapping was located either, but I'll look it up at some point.

[Hunter]

Hi Maria,

I was referring to the Imperial Club and the IWMEC.

One area that had many all nighters was south of Tiger Bay along the 'Highway' down to Wapping; catering to specific nationalities from the merchant marine. Little flags from the 'home country' would be painted on a window.

[mariab]

So-called private clubs were abundant- especially in the Jewish community- and two of these figured heavily in the double event.

Hunter, are you just referring to the Nelson and to the Bricklayers' arms, or to something else?

There is always a place to drink, anytime.

Comme chez-toi, David. ;-) En fait il ferme à quelle heure, ton bar?

[niko]

"Afters"

Hi everyone, when I lived in the East End (Whitechapel area) I remember in the early 1980's ther were pub's that served drink's after closing time. The customer's were nearly alway's local people, we use to call drinking after closeing time "afters" and if you couldn't get into a pub for afters you could alway's get a drink at a local club that would be opened till very, very late, I don't think thing's were much different in 1888, AND yes there were girl's and woman who were "on the game" drinking in this pub's. I remember they would drink till late with there punter or punter's and then leave with them for "you know what". It was common to see this woman leave with even two or three punter's, on this I can testify as I have seen it with my own eye's, all the best, Agur.

niko

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello CD. Perhaps there were establishments/individuals who dealt in contraband?

You may be posing this as a solution to the Schwartz tale where BS man was tipsy after the pubs had closed. I have often wondered how/where he could have obtained alcohol at that late hour--even given IS's veracity.

Cheers.
LC

Lynn,

Where there's a market there's a way.

Outside of closing time we did and still have 'StoppyBacks' in the North East, and elsewhere they're called 'lock-ins'. Basically, the landlord locks the doors and closes the curtains and you can drink providing you have money in your back pocket - closing time or no closing time.

In the event East Enders couldn't get a beer after closing time in those days, I'd be gobsmacked.

[DVV]

There is always a place to drink, anytime.

[Hunter]

... does anyone know if there were places that someone could go at any time to get a drink after the pubs closed? I am thinking along the lines of individuals who were know to sell liquor. Or is it more of a case that when the pubs closed you were out of luck?

There were places called 'sly houses' and 'bogus pubs' where people could get a drink during the hours when alcohol sales weren't legal; much like the 'speakeasies' of the 1920s during prohibition in the U.S. Some had secret entrances from back alleys and others were fronts for legitimate businesses like barber shops( if you wanted a Sunday morning drink).

So-called private clubs were abundant- especially in the Jewish community- and two of these figured heavily in the double event. Only members were supposed to order drinks, but often, their 'guest' paid for them. There were very few restrictions in many on membership; just sign an application.

Because of Jewish traditions on Saturdays and because Sundays were the only days many people of all cultures had any recreational time, these places- as I believe Montagu Williams wrote- did a thriving business on Sunday mornings from the time regular pubs closed at 12:30 a.m. until Sunday afternoons.

On the question about Schwartz's BS man being intoxicated and where he may have gotten a drink at that hour; he was supposedly seen by Schwartz at 12:45, only 15 minutes after the 'public houses' had closed. Many dock workers, laborers and sailors would be making it home at that time or heading for one of the 'establishments' mentioned above. This was the busiest time for the police as far as 'rows' were concerned and the time when prostitutes moved from the main thoroughfares to secondary streets to intercept last minute customers.

The 'double event' happened on a Saturday night/Sunday morning and I believe that it was no accident that both victims were probably seen outside a 'club' shortly before they were murdered.

[mariab]

Yep, a verbal léger de main (or léger de langue). ;-)