Was Alcohol Available After the Pubs Closed?

[Robert]

I remember a poster suggesting that Eddowes's hand was frisking Lawende's man for a flask.

[Stephen Thomas]

Schwartz didn't say anything about BS appearing tipsy.

Yes he did, and the possibility has to remain that BS was just some violent geezer staggering home from a pub north of Commercial Road who didn't like Jews or being propositioned by prostitutes. And who gave Stride a whack and kept walking.

[mariab]

Thanks to Monty and to all.

the possibility has to remain that BS was just some violent geezer staggering home from a pub north of Commercial Road who didn't like Jews or being propositioned by prostitutes. And who gave Stride a whack and kept walking.

This possibility remains within frame, of course. Though possibly less plausible than BS having been simply an IWEC member who didn't appreciate prostitutes in front of his Club and who kicked Stride to the curb out of Dutfields Yard.
By the by, I doubt that many inhabitants of Victorian Whitechapel wouldn't have been habitually tipsy at the time of night when the Schwartz incident supposedly happened.

I remember a poster suggesting that Eddowes's hand was frisking Lawende's man for a flask.

LOL. Or for his wallet.

[lynn cates]

sequence

Hello Maria.

"Though possibly less plausible than BS having been simply an IWEC member who didn't appreciate prostitutes in front of his Club and who kicked Stride to the curb out of Dutfield's Yard."

This raises the natural question, Why was BS man not coming out the club door on Berner st, looking south, spotting Liz, and then ordering her out?

My point is, why would he walk out the door, go off towards Commercial rd, then come back, spot Liz, etc?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Well, Lynn, we don't know if Schwartz' story was not meant to (clumsily?) cover the fact that an IWEC member (Morris Eagle?) had previously interacted with Stride, as in perhaps throwing her out of Dutfields Yard.
You know I'm looking into this, as you happen to have the AF scans. ;-)

[lynn cates]

sleight agreement

Hello Maria. If you are suggesting that IS was engaged in a bit of verbal sleight of hand (sleight of tongue?) I completely agree.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Yep, a verbal léger de main (or léger de langue). ;-)

[Hunter]

... does anyone know if there were places that someone could go at any time to get a drink after the pubs closed? I am thinking along the lines of individuals who were know to sell liquor. Or is it more of a case that when the pubs closed you were out of luck?

There were places called 'sly houses' and 'bogus pubs' where people could get a drink during the hours when alcohol sales weren't legal; much like the 'speakeasies' of the 1920s during prohibition in the U.S. Some had secret entrances from back alleys and others were fronts for legitimate businesses like barber shops( if you wanted a Sunday morning drink).

So-called private clubs were abundant- especially in the Jewish community- and two of these figured heavily in the double event. Only members were supposed to order drinks, but often, their 'guest' paid for them. There were very few restrictions in many on membership; just sign an application.

Because of Jewish traditions on Saturdays and because Sundays were the only days many people of all cultures had any recreational time, these places- as I believe Montagu Williams wrote- did a thriving business on Sunday mornings from the time regular pubs closed at 12:30 a.m. until Sunday afternoons.

On the question about Schwartz's BS man being intoxicated and where he may have gotten a drink at that hour; he was supposedly seen by Schwartz at 12:45, only 15 minutes after the 'public houses' had closed. Many dock workers, laborers and sailors would be making it home at that time or heading for one of the 'establishments' mentioned above. This was the busiest time for the police as far as 'rows' were concerned and the time when prostitutes moved from the main thoroughfares to secondary streets to intercept last minute customers.

The 'double event' happened on a Saturday night/Sunday morning and I believe that it was no accident that both victims were probably seen outside a 'club' shortly before they were murdered.

[DVV]

There is always a place to drink, anytime.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello CD. Perhaps there were establishments/individuals who dealt in contraband?

You may be posing this as a solution to the Schwartz tale where BS man was tipsy after the pubs had closed. I have often wondered how/where he could have obtained alcohol at that late hour--even given IS's veracity.

Cheers.
LC

Lynn,

Where there's a market there's a way.

Outside of closing time we did and still have 'StoppyBacks' in the North East, and elsewhere they're called 'lock-ins'. Basically, the landlord locks the doors and closes the curtains and you can drink providing you have money in your back pocket - closing time or no closing time.

In the event East Enders couldn't get a beer after closing time in those days, I'd be gobsmacked.

[niko]

"Afters"

Hi everyone, when I lived in the East End (Whitechapel area) I remember in the early 1980's ther were pub's that served drink's after closing time. The customer's were nearly alway's local people, we use to call drinking after closeing time "afters" and if you couldn't get into a pub for afters you could alway's get a drink at a local club that would be opened till very, very late, I don't think thing's were much different in 1888, AND yes there were girl's and woman who were "on the game" drinking in this pub's. I remember they would drink till late with there punter or punter's and then leave with them for "you know what". It was common to see this woman leave with even two or three punter's, on this I can testify as I have seen it with my own eye's, all the best, Agur.

niko

[mariab]

So-called private clubs were abundant- especially in the Jewish community- and two of these figured heavily in the double event.

Hunter, are you just referring to the Nelson and to the Bricklayers' arms, or to something else?

There is always a place to drink, anytime.

Comme chez-toi, David. ;-) En fait il ferme à quelle heure, ton bar?

[Hunter]

Hi Maria,

I was referring to the Imperial Club and the IWMEC.

One area that had many all nighters was south of Tiger Bay along the 'Highway' down to Wapping; catering to specific nationalities from the merchant marine. Little flags from the 'home country' would be painted on a window.

[mariab]

Thanks Hunter.
It's a fact that the IWEC engaged in cigarette contraband and that they served drinks during the festivities held in their Club. The police was on to them about this big time. Do we know if members/patrons of the IWEC payed for their drinks? Also, during their festivities (as in the night of September 29 1888) does anyone know if they played music themselves or used hired musicians?

The Imperial Club is a totally new concept for me. Where can I read about this?

Not sure where Wapping was located either, but I'll look it up at some point.

[Hunter]

Hi Maria,

I don't know if payment for drinks at the IWMEC was obtained in the usual way, but it is certain some method was contrived to finance it. Staying one step ahead of authorities inspires ingenious methods.

The Imperial Club? Come on Maria... That was the club Harris, Levy and Lawende were leaving when they reportedly saw Kate Eddowes with a man at the entrance to Church Passage.

Here is probably the best thread with information on it.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1363&highlight=Imperial+Club

What I was driving at in an earlier post was that after the public houses closed, activity still went on at these places and were a natural attraction for men wanting one more drink or certain women to do business outside as a result... even pickpockets and thieves. If you'll recall, Levy expressed concern about some of the characters around (recalling the man and woman at the entrance to Church Passage) and going home alone- as they started down Duke Street- and his consternation was probably well founded.