Where did the Ripper likely live?

[caz]

She was found in the darkest corner of the yard - seems to be by design to me - I'd estimate she wasn't standing around in that corner so must have gone there/been dragged there, as opposed to 'striking where he encountered her'.

No signs of a struggle, so again it suggests she went there willingly.

And, we do know prostitutes used that yard, so it was as private as Liz needed, although not as private as Jack needed to enjoy himself.

Sorry, FM, I didn't express myself very well there. What I meant by 'striking where he encountered her' was that he presumably encountered her in or near Dutfield's Yard, where she was found dead. It's likely that the others encountered their killer on a main road and took him or went with him to different locations, where he found he could carry out the various mutilations.

I agree with you that whether or not Stride was willing to service her killer in the yard, it clearly wasn't the ideal time or place for the serial mutilator who was active that night.

And that makes me think it may have been Stride's idea to stay put and not go off with anyone elsewhere.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Caz,

Well, I suppose the proof's in the pudding and the fact he wasn't caught tells us he was careful enough.

Perhaps he had his own reasons for thinking he'd get away with it, e.g. he had a knife and could fend someone off or something entirely different, e.g. for someone reason he felt he an advantage on some passer by, i.e. he'd see and hear them before they did him.

He could quite easily have moved onto someone else, somewhere else, so either Stride wasn't JTR; or he simply felt the risks weren't as great as we assume with a modern eye, or he was consumded with killing and mutilating and risks were not really uppermost within his mind (outside of killing in a dark spot).

Difficult really to say. The one thing I would confidentally contend based on police accounts of how and when the search was undertaken after one of the murders, is that he had a good chance of getting away with it providing he wasn't caught red handed.

[Phil H]

Well, I suppose the proof's in the pudding and the fact he wasn't caught tells us he was careful enough.

Or lucky. If Lechmere/Cross wasn't "Jack" (maybe even if he was) he had a close shave in Buck's Row,

Perhaps he had his own reasons for thinking he'd get away with it, e.g. he had a knife and could fend someone off

That probably would have been his fall-back option, IMHO. It makes one wonder whether he covered his face - say with a scarf - once the deed was done, so no one would recognise him. But that's idle speculation.

He could quite easily have moved onto someone else, somewhere else, so either Stride wasn't JTR; or he simply felt the risks weren't as great as we assume with a modern eye,

One of my reasons for believing that Stride was a "domestic" is that the location was too busy, with too many people about.

Phil

[Adam Went]

Phil H:

You make some valid points.
Everybody talks about Mitre Square being one of the most dangerous locations, but I don't necessarily agree with that given that, as you said, it had 3 different exits. Likewise in Berner Street he could have disappeared in a hurry in any direction. Hanbury Street, on the other hand, was a closed in yard with just the passageway from whence he came with his victim. The fence was not overly high and if he was athletic enough he could have jumped it with no difficulty if somebody appeared, but exactly - into what? What if he jumped into Cadosch's yard while he was standing there, for instance?

It was risky. MJK's was risky too from an escaping point of view but only if she had somebody checking on her in the wee hours of the morning, which would have been unlikely if the lights were out and they believed her to be asleep.

It's possible that Long and Cadosch heard something different and were wrong, but that still doesn't explain how Richardson could have missed the body if it was there at around 4.45 AM? Unless he was one of the least observant people ever, considering he was there in the first place to check on the security of the yard.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Phil H:

Everybody talks about Mitre Square being one of the most dangerous locations, but I don't necessarily agree with that given that, as you said, it had 3 different exits.

It appears dangerous to us because we know of the police beats and Morris etc.

Did Jack know of these?

According to Morris it was a 'quiet and respectable area'.

So, Jack may have thought he'd struck gold. A dark square in a quiet area while being completely oblivious to police beats.

One thing that intrigued me about Morris is that he states something like: "I never go outside between 1-2 on a Saturday night because I have work to do". Well, he has work to do the other nights! I'm curious as to what is different about Saturday.

[Rubyretro]

He could quite easily have moved onto someone else, somewhere else, so either Stride wasn't JTR; or he simply felt the risks weren't as great as we assume with a modern eye, or he was consumded with killing and mutilating and risks were not really uppermost within his mind (outside of killing in a dark spot).

There is another possible reason : it was killing in that particular spot (next to the club) that mattered the most to him, and therefore he was willing to take the risks and do without the mutilation (to be had later).

[Fleetwood Mac]

There is another possible reason : it was killing in that particular spot (next to the club) that mattered the most to him, and therefore he was willing to take the risks and do without the mutilation (to be had later).

Why would the club be the thing that mattered most to him, Ruby?

[Adam Went]

Fleetwood:

Interesting, don't think i'd heard of that comment from Morris before. Is it possible that, being a weekend night shortly after most pubs and ale houses had closed, he prefered to stay indoors whilst all the drunks, some of them violent and spoiling for a fight (again, human nature in 1888 has not changed with time) made their way homewards?

Or, alternatively, maybe he just wanted to distance himself from being anywhere near the scene of the crime, like Harris and Levy....the difference is that Morris was of course an ex-policeman.

There's no doubt that each crime scene had their own individual risks but IMO Mitre Square was actually a slightly safer option for the killer, given the multiple exits, the quietness and the darkness.....the only risk he had was two or three policemen coming in at the same time via different exits and spotting him, which ALMOST could have happened.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Monty]

You've never heard of Morris's comment before Adam?

And you are writing an article on Mitre Square?

Morris states he had duties to perform during that period of Saturday night/Sunday morning. He would have been expected to have kept the premises in reasonable condition and there seems to have been a routine with Morris. Something, I suspect, Eddowes knew.

One thing every one is missing with regards the risk of capture at Mitre Square is the reversal of beats which, initially, would have thrown a killer if he had been studying them previously.

After all, that's why beats were reversed without warning, just in case they had been studied.

Monty

[Fleetwood Mac]

Fleetwood:

Interesting, don't think i'd heard of that comment from Morris before. Is it possible that, being a weekend night shortly after most pubs and ale houses had closed, he prefered to stay indoors whilst all the drunks, some of them violent and spoiling for a fight (again, human nature in 1888 has not changed with time) made their way homewards?

Or, alternatively, maybe he just wanted to distance himself from being anywhere near the scene of the crime, like Harris and Levy....the difference is that Morris was of course an ex-policeman.

There's no doubt that each crime scene had their own individual risks but IMO Mitre Square was actually a slightly safer option for the killer, given the multiple exits, the quietness and the darkness.....the only risk he had was two or three policemen coming in at the same time via different exits and spotting him, which ALMOST could have happened.

Cheers,
Adam.

Adam,

From memory, it's from the statement he gave at the inquest. He says something like: ''between 1-2 I stand smoking my pipe at the door, except for Saturday as my work keeps me indoors''.

Intriguingly, Watkin opened by saying something like: "I patrolled my beat from 9.45 til 1 in the morning".

Why 1? Very odd.

Being fanstatical about this: were these, plus the policeman at the other end of the square, Sgt White's two men? Except it doesn't fit because there are 3 entry points to the square and one of them isn't directly from the Whitechapel Road.

Regardless, he certainly offered his work as the explantion as to why he wasn't at the door between 1-2.

I'm intrigued as to why he positioned himself in that corner of the square. Assuming he's there at 1.30 - a decent shout considering the man and Eddowes are having a cosy chat and are there prior to Lawende arriving - then he knows Watkin comes one way and Harvey comes the other - so the St James' corner would have been the safest bet (in terms of escaping from the police). I'm not convinced that he was working to say 5 or 7 minutes because how would he know when that time was up?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Replying to myself here: then again Harvey nor Watkin report a couple at 1.30ish.

[Adam Went]

Monty:

Who said anything about writing an article on Mitre Square? That's news to me. I am of course aware of Morris and his work in 1888 as well as his past involvement with the police force, but I simply don't recall hearing that particular statement from himself before.

What gives you the impression that Eddowes took any particular notice of Morris's work? He was, in any case, not far away....

Fleetwood:

It's a strange one, no doubt about that. But then he'd be far from the first Ripper witness to make some bizarre statements. It really could be as simple as him trying to distance himself from involvement in what occurred in Mitre Square that night, shying away from the spotlight and the inevitable uproar of why nobody could lay a hand on JTR....

The times are also subject to the accuracy of Lawende & Co, Harvey and Watkins. One or more of them could be out by a couple of minutes, but it was a tight timeline for sure, either way....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Monty]

Its the only time in the week, between 1 and 2am, where Morris wasn't physically in the Square.

She had a window to trade.

Monty

[Adam Went]

Monty:

Well you're presuming first of all that she was soliciting at the time she was killed, which we don't know for certain.

And you're also suggesting that, presuming she was soliciting, that she made use of a square that not only could be accessed via three different paths but one which, by your own account, she could only use - or use with some degree of safety - for one hour out of every week.

Wouldn't you think that she'd be hunting out better, more discreet locations if that were the case?

Cheers,
Adam.

[Monty]

Monty:

Well you're presuming first of all that she was soliciting at the time she was killed, which we don't know for certain.

Yes, this has been established many years ago in discussions I have been involved in. I am fully aware that we cannot say with certainty Eddowes was soliciting at the time of her murder.

However, we can logically assume with some degree of comfort, that Eddowes partook in casual prostitution and did so that night.

She and Kelly had returned potless from Kent, they had to pawn his boots for a bed, she departed Kelly around 2pm and was found 6 or so hours later drunk against a shopfront. Either Eddowes was extremely industrious in those hours, industrious enough to earn her money and spend it getting drunk or someone had taken a liking to her. Which do you suspect is the most likely? Seeing (according to Kelly) that she hadnt been able to earn any legitimate money at all during the days prior to her death.

If someone did take a liking to her then I suspect it wasnt out of mere friendship. Drink costs, and there is a price one way or t'other, as we see later with Coles and Sadler.

And you're also suggesting that, presuming she was soliciting, that she made use of a square that not only could be accessed via three different paths but one which, by your own account, she could only use - or use with some degree of safety - for one hour out of every week.

Wouldn't you think that she'd be hunting out better, more discreet locations if that were the case?

Im sure there were other various locations she could have used. I do not think she use Duke Street as a pick up point because of its close proximity to Mitre Square. I assume she used that spot in Church passage because of the trade to be gained from the Imperial Club, this would also explain Levys comments. Stride, it seems, did the same outside the Berner Street Club.

Morris stated that he sometimes had to 'usher' women and men from that corner in the Square. If. and I state if, Eddowes knew of Morris's routine then she would have utilised that hour in my opinion. Once 2pm came and went she may have moved elsewhere to commit the act.

The bottom line is she was found in the darkest corner of a square and no screams or shouts were heared (indicating she went voluntarily). There were no signs of a struggle.

Therefore I suspect she didnt go there to have a cup of tea and pass the time.

Monty