Ripper-Related Victorian Vocabulary

[Archaic]

Oh yeah; I guess I went by Marble Arch when I was in London.

I think I was on a doubler-decker bus tour, and the guide talked about young children being hanged for having stolen a loaf of bread.

I would think the site is haunted.

Best regard,
Archaic

[Archaic]

"Pensioner" = "Pimp"

Here's an interesting slang term. It reminded me of Annie Chapman's "friend" Edward Stanley, who was known as "the Pensioner".

This is from Hotten's 1872 Slang Dictionary.

"PENSIONER, a man of the most degraded morals who lives off the miserable earnings of a prostitute."

Does this not potentially alter our perceptions of Ted the Pensioner, who in the Chapman case admitted he'd never drawn a regimental pension?

Hi Dave.

That thought certainly crossed my mind, which is why I posted the alternative meanings for "pensioner". The slang term is loaded with sacrcasm, isn't it?

On the other hand there were plenty of ex-soldiers who received a small pension, and to have any type of steady income, however meager, seemed to earn one a bit of respect of the East End. Edward Stanley appears to have been quite humiliated to have to publicly confess that his story about being a 'pensioner' was a fabrication.

Here's a thread from 2009 where I expressed my personal thoughts on that issue: http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-2574.html

To be honest, I think any man trying to earn an income as Annie's 'pimp' was a bit deluded as to his prospects. However, in other cases, particularly those involving younger and more successful prostitutes, "pensioner" really might be a euphemism to watch for.

You're welcome to raise the question in a Chapman thread if you like.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Rubyretro]

My mum says that when she worked at C&A, at Marble Arch,in the 1950s she saw the body of Oliver Cromwell, in chains, being dug up (I believe that his head wasn't with it
-it was dipped in tar and put up on a spike somewhere ? And buried in Cambridege in the '60s ?). I think that Cromwell was hung posthumeously.

[ChrisGeorge]

My mum says that when she worked at C&A, at Marble Arch,in the 1950s she saw the body of Oliver Cromwell, in chains, being dug up (I believe that his head wasn't with it
-it was dipped in tar and put up on a spike somewhere ? And buried in Cambridege in the '60s ?). I think that Cromwell was hung posthumeously.

Hello Ruby

Here are the goods on Oliver Cromwell's supposed posthumous execution, according to Wikipedia:

"He died aged 59 at Whitehall on Friday 3 September 1658, the anniversary of his great victories at Dunbar and Worcester. The most likely cause of Cromwell's death was septicaemia following his urinary infection. He was buried with great ceremony, with an elaborate funeral based on that of James I, at Westminster Abbey, his daughter Elizabeth also being buried there. . . ."

Following the Restoration of the monarchy under Charles II in 1660, "[on] 30 January 1661, (symbolically the 12th anniversary of the execution of Charles I), Oliver Cromwell's body was exhumed from Westminster Abbey, and was subjected to the ritual of a posthumous execution, as were the remains of Robert Blake, John Bradshaw and Henry Ireton. (The body of Cromwell's daughter was allowed to remain buried in the Abbey.) His body was hanged in chains at Tyburn. Finally, his disinterred body was thrown into a pit, while his severed head was displayed on a pole outside Westminster Hall until 1685.

"However, many people began to question whether or not the body mutilated at Tyburn was in fact that of Cromwell. These doubts arose because it was assumed that between his death in September 1658 and the exhumation of January 1661, Cromwell’s body was buried and reburied in several places in order to protect it from vengeful royalists. The stories suggest that his bodily remains are buried in London, Cambridgeshire, Northamptonshire or Yorkshire. It continues to be questioned whether the body mutilated at Tyburn was in fact that of Oliver Cromwell."

Best regards

Chris

[Archaic]

Oliver Cromwell's body was exhumed from Westminster Abbey, and was subjected to the ritual of a posthumous execution

"Posthumous execution"- what a concept!

Thanks Ruby and Chris.
Archaic

[Archaic]

Ancestor Executed At Tyburn

As I was learning more about Tyburn, I read about the execution there of one of my own ancestors!

Roger de Mortimer, the 1st Earl of March, became the lover of Queen Isabella and together they overthrew King Edward II. (It's not known whether Edward II was murdered; there are also indications that he was kept alive but imprisoned.) When young Edward III came into power, he had Mortimer seized and executed at Tyburn.

Roger de Mortimer was hung on November 29, 1330. He was the first nobleman to be hung at Tyburn. This occurred before the giant gallows known as "the three-legged mare" was erected. In 1330 Tyburn was called "Tyburn Tree" or "The Elms."

What's both interesting and extremely confusing about my family tree (especially for an American!) is that the families of which it are composed were first friends, relations and allies, then arch-enemies and even the murderers of one another, then they reconciled by intermarrying!
I'm descended from the marriage of Edward III's grand-daughter, Princess Philippa of Clarence, Heiress of Ulster, to Roger de Mortimer's great-grandson and heir Edmund de Mortimer, the 3rd Earl of March.
(So the grandfather of the bride put to death the great-grandfather of the groom.)

Execution of Roger de Mortimer at Tyburn: http://edwardthesecond.blogspot.com/...-mortimer.html

I'm curious if any other members know if one of their ancestors was executed at Tyburn?

Best regards,
Archaic

[ChrisGeorge]

Hello Archaic

Very interesting to hear that you are descended from Roger de Mortimer, the 1st Earl of March. A great piece of history, if a very bloody one. As far as I know none of my forebears have had their necks stretched on the gallows and have been guilty of nothing more than trying to stretch the budget in difficult times!

All the best

Chris

[Archaic]

Hi Chris.

While doing genealogy an English friend of mine discovered that she had an ancestor in the early 1800's who was put in Newgate for stealing a little bit of cloth. I believe it was a woman, and she spent 3 months in solitary confineement.

I guess if you go back far enough, stries like that are in everybody's family. That's basically what history is, "the story of us".

Best regards,
Archaic

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Chris.

While doing genealogy an English friend of mine discovered that she had an ancestor in the early 1800's who was put in Newgate for stealing a little bit of cloth. I believe it was a woman, and she spent 3 months in solitary confineement.

I guess if you go back far enough, stries like that are in everybody's family. That's basically what history is, "the story of us".

Best regards,
Archaic

Indeed. Thanks, Archaic.

Cheers

Chris

[Robert]

Those interested in genealogy may find the following ditty amusing :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgS4lCT2F4c

[ChrisGeorge]

Those interested in genealogy may find the following ditty amusing :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgS4lCT2F4c

Thanks, Robert. I enjoyed that. Although not about genealogy, the sense of humor in that song reminded me of the offbeat songs of Baltimore-born jazz bassist Jay Leonhart. See these:

The German Shepherd

I Want My Bonus

Cheers

Chris

[Archaic]

"On The Wagon" and Execution At Tyburn

Thanks Robert and Chris. Up the Family Tree!

Here's another slang term apparently derived from the custom of hanging people at Tyburn- the phrase "on the wagon", meaning one is not drinking alcohol.

The story is that condemned prisoners were driven through town in an open wagon, sitting on their own coffins. (Lovely touch, that.) On the way to Tyburn the wagon made a traditional stop for a drop of "charity", an alcoholic beverage to help slake their thirst and steady their nerves. Once the wagon was underway again they were headed straight for execution, never to drink liquor again.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/place-london/A988833

Makes me wonder who first made the witty remark "He fell off the wagon" when they saw someone imbibing.

Oh, I know- it must have been Robert's great-gr-gr-gr--gr-gr-great-grandpa...

Archaic

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Archaic and Robert

As brutal as they were, the executions in Britain were relatively humane compared to those in Russia and elsewhere. Wikipedia discusses Russian executions, noting that "the methods of execution were extremely cruel by modern standards (but fully consistent with the standards of the time), and included drowning, burying alive, and forcing liquid metal into the throat." Some of the executions gained international notoriety, e.g., the mass execution of Streltsy by Peter the Great after their failed uprising of 1698.

Chris

[Rubyretro]

Those interested in genealogy may find the following ditty amusing :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgS4lCT2F4c

Thank you Robert ....love this...right up my street..

I've got a couple of felons in my Family Tree (that I know of !), one hung and one transported..

[Rubyretro]

Robert -do you know Brassens ?

http://youtu.be/gsmT5MVGQ_g