Ripper-Related Victorian Vocabulary

[Stephen Thomas]

I believe Victorian ventriloquists referred to it as a 'gucket of geer'.

[Carol]

[QUOTE=Jane Coram;169971]Hi,

I think you're right Maurice and Stephen, as far as I know it was just a pail or jug of beer. I've never heard any other term for it. I've still got an old earthenware jug and pot with a lid in my cupboard that was my great granmas which she used to send my nan to fetch pie and mash and beer in (as well as milk).

Hi everyone!
I can't remember another term for a pail or jug of beer either. I can only remember that the little 'off-licences' attached to the pubs were always called 'The Bottle and Jug'. I can remember being sent down to our nearest 'off-licence' from time to time as an older child (at least 10 years old I would say) to get Dad a large bottle of cider that the family had with Sunday lunch. My little brother Freddy (5 years younger than myself) and I were allowed to have some as long as it was nearly drowned with water!

I'm really enjoying this thread. I'm remembering long forgotten things and it's amazing just how close my childhood seems, even though I'm soon 65 years old!

Take care,
Carol

[Carol]

Hi everyone!

I thought you might be interested to know how the street traders in the East End came to be called 'costermongers'. This name derives from the sellers of costard apples, a variety known since the 1200's and one of the first fruits to be sold by London street traders.

When I was young in Chatham a costermonger was someone who sold items of food (fruit, fish, vegetables, etc.) from a barrow that could be moved about. Does anyone know if 'costermonger' was (or is) used for a seller with a fixed pitch in the East End?

Love
Carol

Hi everyone,
I forgot to mention my source for the above post - it is 'My East End' by Gilda O'Neill, page 61.
Better late than never!
Love
Carol

[PC Roadnight]

Hi everyone,
I forgot to mention my source for the above post - it is 'My East End' by Gilda O'Neill, page 61.
Better late than never!
Love
Carol

Hi Carol,
Strictly speaking no. Even if they sold fruit and veg. They were then correctly called 'street traders' because the markets required them to have a street traders licence. But.......even in the late 1960s, when I was a (very young) PC, some wheeled stalls were brought to East Street Market in Walworth by folks who called themselves costermongers, but they still needed a licence!

[Carol]

Hi Carol,
Strictly speaking no. Even if they sold fruit and veg. They were then correctly called 'street traders' because the markets required them to have a street traders licence. But.......even in the late 1960s, when I was a (very young) PC, some wheeled stalls were brought to East Street Market in Walworth by folks who called themselves costermongers, but they still needed a licence!

Hi PC Roadnight,
Thanks for the information. I appreciate it!
Love
Carol

[Archaic]

Gawf

Hi everyone.

Here's a slang term used by costermongers I found in a Victorian book:

Gawf - a cheap red-skinned apple, a favourite fruit with costermongers, who rub them well with a piece of cloth, and find ready purchasers.

Does anyone know if "gawf" is still used?

Hmmm... "as American as Gawf Pie". Nope, it doesn't work.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Archaic]

'Skinker' and 'Bucket' vs. 'Pail'

1875: Skinker- commonly a drawer or pourer out of liquor; but here it signifies the can or jug from which the beer was poured out at table.

1877: Bucket- a pail, whether made of wood or tin. Sometimes, however, a distinction is made, a wooden vessel of this kind being called a 'bucket' and a tin one a 'pail'.


Skinker is both the person who pours the liquor (maybe at taverns?) and is also the word for the can or jug that held the liquor. In the latter sense it seems to be on a par with a "pot" used to hold beer.

I thought the differentiation between a wooden 'bucket' and tin 'pail' was interesting.

Best regards,
Archaic

[curious4]

Victorian vocab

Hello again all,

Just catching up. A cockchafer is actually a kind of beetle (called a maybug where I grew up), I think in the press-cutting about hunting that "knickers" is short for knickerbockers.( Baggy trousers to the knees, you wouldn´t want your pheasants running up your trouserlegs)

A "gay young man about town", perhaps we shouldn´t go there, not even with reference to Prince Eddy - just meant a playboy (which is probably dated now as well - can´t think of a modern equivilant - perhaps young men don´t play as much as they did). Continuing on this theme reminds me of the old anonymous verse which would be completely misunderstood these days:

"All the world´s gone mad, m´dear,
Save thee and me,
And even thee´s a little queer."

Sometimes comes to mind when I`m reading through the casebook!


Regards,
C4

[curious4]

Vic vocab

Just in case I have inadvertantly offended anyone: queer = odd, strange, more recently = gay.

Best wishes
c4

[Carol]

Hi everyone.

Here's a slang term used by costermongers I found in a Victorian book:

Gawf - a cheap red-skinned apple, a favourite fruit with costermongers, who rub them well with a piece of cloth, and find ready purchasers.

Does anyone know if "gawf" is still used?

Hmmm... "as American as Gawf Pie". Nope, it doesn't work.

Best regards,
Archaic

Hi Archaic,
I don't know if 'gawf' is still used and I haven't heard it before myself (not that that is anything to go by!). But I have had a thought about the cheap apples. I can remember when I was young the very red, shiny apples that were cheaper than the others. The only problem was that they didn't taste as good as they looked. They had hardly any taste and the inside was a bit 'spongy' and not at all crisp. Now when I was young you used to hear grown-ups say that something was 'God awful'. Perhaps 'Gawf' is taken from this.
Love
Carol

[Archaic]

Victorian Slang for Various Types of 'Thief'

Here's a list of Victorian slang terms for thieves, and the 'specialty' to which they apply.

"Among other names for thieves may be mentioned:—

Beak or beaker-hunter (a poultry thief);
bug-hunter (specialty—breast pins, studs, etc.);
buz-faker (a pickpocket);
buttock and file(a shoplifter);

bouncer (one who steals while bargaining with a tradesman; a shoplifter);
bridle-cull (a highwayman);
cracksman (a burglar);
crossman (An old term. Literally a man 'on the cross,' or who gets his living surreptitiously);
cross-cove (see foregoing);

conveyancer (a pickpocket);
dancer (a thief who gains entrance to houses from the roof);
flash-cove (a sharper);
flashman (a prostitute's bully who pretends to catch the victim in flagrantc delicto with his wife, and thus makes an excuse for robbery and extortion);

finder (a thief who confines his depredations to meat-markets and butchers' shops);
gleaner, hooker, or angler (these are petty thieves, who work with hooks and rods);
lobsneak; lully-prigger (one who steals clothes when they are hanging out to dry);
snakesman or sneaksman (a shoplifter; a petty thief);

sneeze-lurker (this kind work by first blinding victims with pepper, etc.);
moucher (a prowling thief);
prig; prop-nailer (a 'prop' is a scarf pin);
palmer (a thief who 'rings the changes');

pudding-slammer (an eating-house thief);
drummer or drammer (they stupify their victims prior to robbing them);
stock-hauler (speciality — pocket-handkerchiefs); tooler (a pickpocket);
toy-getter (a watch thief)."


"Buttock and file" for "shoplifter"- now that is truly bizarre! (I started to wonder about its origins, then realized they probably don't bear thinking about! )

Cheers,
Archaic

[Archaic]

"Buttock And File", "Buttocking Shop", "Barrack-hack"

I looked up "Buttock and File" and actually managed to find some more info on it.
The following definitions are from an 1890 book:

Buttock—A common prostitute. [For synonyms, see Barrack-hack, and Buttock and File.]

Buttock And File—A prostitute and her companion.
Occasionally, too, Buttock And File is used of a single individual — one who unites the roles of a thief and prostitute. [From Buttock, a whore+ File, a pickpocket.]

Buttock And File, a common whore and a pickpocket.

Buttock And Tongue -A scolding woman; a shrew.

Buttock And Twang— A common prostitute, but who refrains from theft.

Buttock Ball, (old).—1.A dance attended by prostitutes. 2. (old.)—The sexual embrace; cohabitation.

Buttock-ball —The amorous congress.

Buttock-Banquetting (old). —Harlotry.

Buttock-broker—A procuress; a bawd; an abbess.

Buttocking Shop—A brothel; a house of ill fame used by the lowest class of public women.

---------------

'Barrack-hack'- was obviously a slang term applied to prostitutes who consorted with soldiers. A "bawd" was usually a woman who ran a bawdy-house or brothel.
A 'procuress' was a female, often older, who looked for innocent young girls to entice or trick into prostitution. She also arranged their "sale" to others. (William Stead wrote about these women and the shamefully deceptive practices they used. They often posed as kindly older women seeking a girl to do household chores, etc.) In the old days if a bawd was arrested and driven through town on a cart she was called "A Carted Bawd." "Abbess" is an irreverent slang term for a bawd or procuress.

The other slang terms are new to me, but apparently it was common for a prostitute to also be regarded as either a petty thief or the companion of a thief.

Best regards,
Archaic

[sdreid]

I believe playboy became player then dog which may be the diminutive of whoredog.

[SarahLee]

Oh Murder!

all !
This is my first proper post here, so please forgive me if I've failed to post in an appropriate thread.

I'm interested in the assertion that I've seen in several places regarding the phrase "Oh, Murder!" being a common exclamation in the LVP . . . in fact something akin to a modern "Oh, expletive!"

Having read the related threads on here I've started doing some digging to find the possible etymology of such an expression.
Early days yet, but I thought I'd share my thought processes and findings so far and open it up for discussion.

I had a little spark of inspiration that set me wondering "Could that phrase possibly be derived from 'Blue Murder'"?

We're all familiar with "somebody screaming blue murder", but in line with modern usage I've always taken that to just be a metaphor for somebody making a lot of noise. Could it have ever been an expression in its own right though? Would anybody have ever said the actual words "Blue Murder"?
I suspected that the answer was "no", but to my surprise I've found that "Blue Murder" originates from the French "morbleu" (a contraction of "mort bleu") and that was definitely used as an expletive in its own right - bleu being a polite euphemism for dieu (God).

As yet, I don't have any solid evidence of "blue murder!" actually being used in this way and I've still got some work to do around the time periods when each of those phrases was used, but the idea seems to be moving in a logical direction.

Please feel free to tell me that I'm talking complete rubbish, but to me this is feeling like a plausible proposition.

Best Wishes All,

Sarah

[curious4]

vic vocab

Came across this one yesterday for a prostitute - "wandering beauty of the night".