Primrose League

[mariab]

To Lechmere:
Thank you, that's what I thought.

To Debra Arif:
Thank you so much for clarifying. Am I to understand that Le Grand testified in the Parnell inquiry?
George Henry Lewis was a member of the Parnell Commission, so it makes sense that Le Grand and his Scanlan might have gone to him for employment if Le Grand knew about Richard Pigott having confessed to Henry LaBouchere. But can it be that Joseph Soames (the sollicitor of The Times) had employed Le Grand first, as Tom said? Can it be that The Times had gotten wind that the Parnell letters were fake and trying to control the damage to the newspaper's reputation? Parnell eventually sued The Times for libel, and the newspaper paid him £5.000 in an out of court settlement.

By the by, Scanlan sounds like an Irish name. Or not? Possibly explaining his spotting a letter from The Irish Times?

I have to say, this is hot stuff, completely fascinating.

[Lechmere]

Maria - I was just showing how the various Cavendishes were interrelated - with the 3rd Dule of Portland being the grandfather of both the Baroness Bolsover's husband and George Cavendish Bentinck - i.e. they were cousins.

[Debra A]

Hi all,

Soames was the solicitor for the Times. Solicitors such as Soames and George Lewis contracted with countless private investigators. Le Grand claimed to have documentary proof that he was employed by Soames in this regard, and this was not challenged by the court or Lewis. Also, James Hall stated in court that he accompanied Le Grand in following MP Justin McCarthy. Whether this was for a PI contract or because he was digging up dirt for blackmailing is not known, but I'm sure the two went hand in hand. It was stated that Le Grand was in the habit of stalking Members of Parliament.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi all,
Just to put some sort of timeline on this; James Hall said in court that he accompanied Le Grand to Cheney Gardens [Cheyne gardens, McCarthy's home near the embankment] to watch Justin McCarthy, until 2 o'clock [am?].

Le Grand, in company with Scanlan, who had a letter of introduction from the Irish times, went to George Henry Lewis around February 1889 (he says specifically before Pigott gave evidence in the Parnell Inquiry) looking for employment.

[mariab]

Thank you so much for all the information about the CB family tree, Lechmere (and I have to admit that seeing Joseph Soames referred to as “my man“ totally cracked me up).
But why was William Cavendish-Bentinck, the 3rd Duke of Portland (1738-1809) listed under “Cleveland Street“ in your post #33? Just because he was the gradfather of George Cavendish Bentinck, MP (1821-1891), who was involved in the Cleveland Street scandal?
Thus Baroness Bolsover was indirectly involved in the Cleveland Street scandal through her husband's grantparents, and later in life she was blackmailed by a pimp. Cool. (And my head's already swimming.)

[Lechmere]

William Cavendish-Bentinck, the 3rd Duke of Portland (1738-1809) and his wife Lady Dorothy Cavendish, were the grandparents of George Cavendish Bentinck MP (1821-1891) and Lieutenant-General Arthur Cavendish-Bentinck (1819-1877) – the husband of Augusta Browne (1834-1893) who was created Baroness Bolsover in 1880.

I don’t think there is a connection between fatty Soames, the last Governor of Southern Rhodesia, and your man.

[mariab]

Interestingly enough, from the newspaper clipping Lynn Cates attached (on his post #37) it appears that Joseph Soames was quick to accept that some of the alleged subpoenaed letters by Parnell were fake. Which is interesting, since it was The Times that was conducting a smear campaign against Parnell at the time. Was Soames aware that the letters were fake and trying to safeguard his newspaper's reputation? Did he hire Le Grand to figure out if Parnell was innocent (by having him follow Richard Pigott, when he met with Henry Labouchere)?
At any rate, I have no problem imagining Le Grand using all acquired info for blackmailing purposes.

To Tom:
What you've just contributed about documentary proof and James Hall testifying in court about Le Grand having spied over MPs is super cool, as you just gave us hints for a fascinating story developping in front of our eyes! I'm scratching my head to figure out an additional way of researching this, apart from looking in the newspapers.

[Tom_Wescott]

Le Grand and the Parnell Commission

Hi all,

Soames was the solicitor for the Times. Solicitors such as Soames and George Lewis contracted with countless private investigators. Le Grand claimed to have documentary proof that he was employed by Soames in this regard, and this was not challenged by the court or Lewis. Also, James Hall stated in court that he accompanied Le Grand in following MP Justin McCarthy. Whether this was for a PI contract or because he was digging up dirt for blackmailing is not known, but I'm sure the two went hand in hand. It was stated that Le Grand was in the habit of stalking Members of Parliament.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Hey, wait a minute! In Lechmere's post #33, William Cavendish-Bentinck, AKA the 3rd Duke of Portland (1738-1809), is listed BOTH under the Barons of Bolsover as well as implied in the Cleveland Street scandal. How can this be, since he died in 1809 and the Cleveland Street scandal occurred in 1889? Was that gay brothel existing for over 80 years and were people implied in it postmortem? ;-)
Clearly this William Cavendish-Bentinck, 3rd Duke of Portland (1738-1809) was related to William John Arthur Charles James, 6th Duke of Portland and named 2nd Baron Bolsover in 1893, who was the stepson of the Baroness Bolsover blackmailed by Le Grand.

[lynn cates]

search

Hello Maria. Yes, the search must be comprehensive.

We'll keep looking.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Lynn,
I find it very interesting what you're saying about Le Grand's ad for his detective agency having ceased appearing in the newspapers in the summer of 1888, after Piòtr Rachkovsky settled down in London. I think this requires a systematic, comprehensive search in all newspapers, and I'll try to do this in a couple weeks. But we need even more information.

[lynn cates]

resume

Hello Maria. Sounds good.

Yes, I am quite interested in Le Grand. Would love to see his work resume--find out who employed him.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Lynn, I agree about the Strand vicinity having possibly been convenient.
As for his father, I'll most definitely research Danish diplomats. Just need about a week to finish some other work first.
By the way, Tom should be happy. Lots of people are starting considering Le Grand already. Not just...stationionary shops.

[lynn cates]

thug

Hello Maria. Probably not. I still wonder about his father and his connections.

Of course, he would be a good thug to hire and his PI establishment was on the Strand where the first PL Habitation was formed.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

But surely he did not pull those names out of a hat? At least, he may have been invited to a PL fete and met them there.

Hello Lynn,
Le Grand might have just picked up those names from the newspapers. But maybe he was involved, who knows? Tom and Debra will have a better clue about this, and maybe we can find more hints, if we look around. (Just between us, I wish Le Grand were involved in the Parnell matter, so that we can find about it and have a cool story to tell.) As for Le Grand having been invited to a PL party, do you really think? Was he “high class“ enough for that?

[lynn cates]

research

Hello Maria. More research indeed.

But surely he did not pull those names out of a hat? At least, he may have been invited to a PL fete and met them there.

Cheers.
LC