Primrose League

[lynn cates]

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Hello Maria. Yes, the search must be comprehensive.

We'll keep looking.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hey, wait a minute! In Lechmere's post #33, William Cavendish-Bentinck, AKA the 3rd Duke of Portland (1738-1809), is listed BOTH under the Barons of Bolsover as well as implied in the Cleveland Street scandal. How can this be, since he died in 1809 and the Cleveland Street scandal occurred in 1889? Was that gay brothel existing for over 80 years and were people implied in it postmortem? ;-)
Clearly this William Cavendish-Bentinck, 3rd Duke of Portland (1738-1809) was related to William John Arthur Charles James, 6th Duke of Portland and named 2nd Baron Bolsover in 1893, who was the stepson of the Baroness Bolsover blackmailed by Le Grand.

[Tom_Wescott]

Le Grand and the Parnell Commission

Hi all,

Soames was the solicitor for the Times. Solicitors such as Soames and George Lewis contracted with countless private investigators. Le Grand claimed to have documentary proof that he was employed by Soames in this regard, and this was not challenged by the court or Lewis. Also, James Hall stated in court that he accompanied Le Grand in following MP Justin McCarthy. Whether this was for a PI contract or because he was digging up dirt for blackmailing is not known, but I'm sure the two went hand in hand. It was stated that Le Grand was in the habit of stalking Members of Parliament.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Interestingly enough, from the newspaper clipping Lynn Cates attached (on his post #37) it appears that Joseph Soames was quick to accept that some of the alleged subpoenaed letters by Parnell were fake. Which is interesting, since it was The Times that was conducting a smear campaign against Parnell at the time. Was Soames aware that the letters were fake and trying to safeguard his newspaper's reputation? Did he hire Le Grand to figure out if Parnell was innocent (by having him follow Richard Pigott, when he met with Henry Labouchere)?
At any rate, I have no problem imagining Le Grand using all acquired info for blackmailing purposes.

To Tom:
What you've just contributed about documentary proof and James Hall testifying in court about Le Grand having spied over MPs is super cool, as you just gave us hints for a fascinating story developping in front of our eyes! I'm scratching my head to figure out an additional way of researching this, apart from looking in the newspapers.

[Lechmere]

William Cavendish-Bentinck, the 3rd Duke of Portland (1738-1809) and his wife Lady Dorothy Cavendish, were the grandparents of George Cavendish Bentinck MP (1821-1891) and Lieutenant-General Arthur Cavendish-Bentinck (1819-1877) – the husband of Augusta Browne (1834-1893) who was created Baroness Bolsover in 1880.

I don’t think there is a connection between fatty Soames, the last Governor of Southern Rhodesia, and your man.

[mariab]

Thank you so much for all the information about the CB family tree, Lechmere (and I have to admit that seeing Joseph Soames referred to as “my man“ totally cracked me up).
But why was William Cavendish-Bentinck, the 3rd Duke of Portland (1738-1809) listed under “Cleveland Street“ in your post #33? Just because he was the gradfather of George Cavendish Bentinck, MP (1821-1891), who was involved in the Cleveland Street scandal?
Thus Baroness Bolsover was indirectly involved in the Cleveland Street scandal through her husband's grantparents, and later in life she was blackmailed by a pimp. Cool. (And my head's already swimming.)

[Debra A]

Hi all,

Soames was the solicitor for the Times. Solicitors such as Soames and George Lewis contracted with countless private investigators. Le Grand claimed to have documentary proof that he was employed by Soames in this regard, and this was not challenged by the court or Lewis. Also, James Hall stated in court that he accompanied Le Grand in following MP Justin McCarthy. Whether this was for a PI contract or because he was digging up dirt for blackmailing is not known, but I'm sure the two went hand in hand. It was stated that Le Grand was in the habit of stalking Members of Parliament.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi all,
Just to put some sort of timeline on this; James Hall said in court that he accompanied Le Grand to Cheney Gardens [Cheyne gardens, McCarthy's home near the embankment] to watch Justin McCarthy, until 2 o'clock [am?].

Le Grand, in company with Scanlan, who had a letter of introduction from the Irish times, went to George Henry Lewis around February 1889 (he says specifically before Pigott gave evidence in the Parnell Inquiry) looking for employment.

[Lechmere]

Maria - I was just showing how the various Cavendishes were interrelated - with the 3rd Dule of Portland being the grandfather of both the Baroness Bolsover's husband and George Cavendish Bentinck - i.e. they were cousins.

[mariab]

To Lechmere:
Thank you, that's what I thought.

To Debra Arif:
Thank you so much for clarifying. Am I to understand that Le Grand testified in the Parnell inquiry?
George Henry Lewis was a member of the Parnell Commission, so it makes sense that Le Grand and his Scanlan might have gone to him for employment if Le Grand knew about Richard Pigott having confessed to Henry LaBouchere. But can it be that Joseph Soames (the sollicitor of The Times) had employed Le Grand first, as Tom said? Can it be that The Times had gotten wind that the Parnell letters were fake and trying to control the damage to the newspaper's reputation? Parnell eventually sued The Times for libel, and the newspaper paid him £5.000 in an out of court settlement.

By the by, Scanlan sounds like an Irish name. Or not? Possibly explaining his spotting a letter from The Irish Times?

I have to say, this is hot stuff, completely fascinating.

[Tom_Wescott]

Le Grand, in company with Scanlan, who had a letter of introduction from the Irish times, went to George Henry Lewis around February 1889

Hmmmm. Was this their second visit to Lewis? I had them in my head visiting him sooner than Feb of 89.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

By the by, Scanlan sounds like an Irish name. Or not? Possibly explaining his spotting a letter from The Irish Times?

He's probably the fellow who Le Grand had visit Emily Marsh re: the Lusk letter, supposing it wasn't Le Grand himself.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Was this their second visit to Lewis? I had them in my head visiting him sooner than Feb of 89.

Second visit sounds like if they had success in getting hired by George Henry Lewis.

Debs, can I PM you during the weekend (or later) to ask you about where one could consult transcriptions from the Parnell inquiry? Or is just newspapers reports?

And I'm really interested in figuring out Joseph Soames role in all this. The simplest explanation might be that he wanted to protect his newspaper from a libel suit (in which he didn't succeed ultimately).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariab
By the by, Scanlan sounds like an Irish name. Or not? Possibly explaining his spotting a letter from The Irish Times?

He's probably the fellow who Le Grand had visit Emily Marsh re: the Lusk letter, supposing it wasn't Le Grand himself.

Actually this makes sense. Very much. As Scanlan might have spotted an Irish accent. (Without contesting the possibility that Le Grand might have been able to imitate an Irish accent, both when visiting Emily Marsh and in the Lusk letter.)

[Debra A]

Hmmmm. Was this their second visit to Lewis? I had them in my head visiting him sooner than Feb of 89.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,
Le Grand returned to see Lewis at a later date, without Scanlan. As Lewis only says Grand visited him on roughly Feb last, going on to say 'just before Pigott gave evidence,' which was Feb 1889, it could refer to Grand's lone visit and not the earlier visit accompanying Scanlan.

Hi Maria,
No, Le Grand didn't testify as far as I am aware.
The specific questions relating to Grand being employed by Soames, asked at Grand's trial, are not reproduced in the Old Bailey trial transcript, just Lewis's answers that he did not know Le Grand was employed by Soames, had been shadowing Labouchere etc.
Without the exact question it's hard to determine why Lewis was being asked about Soames.

[Debra A]

Debs, can I PM you during the weekend (or later) to ask you about where one could consult transcriptions from the Parnell inquiry? Or is just newspapers reports?

And I'm really interested in figuring out Joseph Soames role in all this. The simplest explanation might be that he wanted to protect his newspaper from a libel suit (in which he didn't succeed ultimately).

Yeah, that's fine Maria.

[mariab]

Hi Maria,
No, Le Grand didn't testify as far as I am aware.
The specific questions relating to Grand being employed by Soames, asked at Grand's trial, are not reproduced in the Old Bailey trial transcript, just Lewis's answers that he did not know Le Grand was employed by Soames, had been shadowing Labouchere etc. Without the exact question it's hard to determine why Lewis was being asked about Soames.

Thank you so much for clarifying, Debs, and yes, I've noticed that the Old Bailey transcripts only contain the witnesses' answers, missing the questions. I'll look up the Parnell inquest, and I might need to PM you indeed if I don't manage to find it. (Sometimes the Old Bailey gets stuck in the 1770s and doesn't move further when I conduct a search, but only infrequently. It's sooo irritating when it happens.)
Still, it really makes sense for a Times sollicitor to have another journalist followed if he had gotten wind that the anti-Parnell campaign advertised by his own newspaper was a fake, or if he already knew it was a fake and had gotten wind that other journalists had figured it out too.