Primrose League

[mariab]

Lewis claimed Le Grand showed up at his office just before Pigott gave evidence in Feb 89, in the latter stages of the inquiry.

Debs, before I read up on this, did Lewis gave any details about what Le Grand reported to him that he had found out while shadowing Pigott? I'm just wondering about how the very first suspicions fell on Pigott pertaining to the alleged Parnell letters. But I've heard that from 1884 on Pigott had began to vilify his former associates (the Irish nationalists) and to sell information to their political opponents.

It was Labouchere who got Pigott to confess to forging the letters sold to the Times and at Lewis's house I think. Lewis had a house at Portland Place.

Yes, it was Labouchere who got Pigott to talk, but I wonder who else was suspecting Pigott. It appears that Lewis, Soames, and even Parnell himself already did. As for Lewis' address at Portland Place, even wikipedia says so.

Maria the snippet is from 'Diary of the Parnell Commission (1890) by John MacDonald' you won't find anything at the Old Bailey from the Inquiry itself. There are a lot of books and pamphlets in various places on the web though.

Thank you so much for clarifying, Debs. I'll most certainly come back to you about the Parnell inquiry at the Malborough Magistrates Court and the various info available on the web, probably by the end of the month.

Wow! To me it kinda feels like if we were trying to clear up Watergate – kinda. But the Parnell accusation was also pretty big a political scandal in 1889.

[Debra A]

A few Parnell and Parnell Inquiry full texts book are here, including 'Parnell' by Charles John Smith

http://www.archive.org/search.php?qu...iatype%3Atexts

[Debra A]

A few points worthy of note...at first, Lewis denied knowing Le Grand at all, until Le Grand mentioned that he had proof. Suddenly, Lewis' memory improved to having met Le Grand TWICE before. Le Grand's mention of Labouchere and Pigott specifically was not accidental, nor likely was Le Grand's showing up at Lewis' office right after Pigott gave evidence accidental. The reason I say this is that Labouchere and Lewis had been best friends for many, many years, and it was none other than Lewis who found Pigott holed up in a hotel ready to commit suicide with a gun. Therefore, if Le Grand was following Pigott and Labouchere, he would have been led right to Lewis' door many a time...which I believe was on Portland Place.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Lewis' other really good friend was HRH.

I think Le Grand first mentioned he was employed by Lewis as a detective on the Parnell inquiry at the Malborough Magistrates Court, this was then discussed again at the following Old Bailey trial, where Lewis said he had not recognised Le Grand until he metioned the incident at Malborough. Le Grand must have elaborated somewhat by the OB trial for Soames, Labouchere and Pigott to be mentioned.
Lewis claimed Le Grand showed up at his office just before Pigott gave evidence in Feb 89, in the latter stages of the inquiry.
It was Labouchere who got Pigott to confess to forging the letters sold to the Times and at Lewis's house I think.
Lewis had a house at Portland Place.

Maria the snippet is from 'Diary of the Parnell Commission (1890)
by John MacDonald' you won't find anything at the Old Bailey from the Inquiry itself. There are a lot of books and pamphlets in various places on the web though.

[mariab]

By the by, the snippet Debra Arif attached to her post #61 looks like a newspaper report about the Old Bailey proceedings.

I might buy some books on the Parnell Commission, but no more than 2. The ones I quoted in my post #64 are a bit old, but they sound solid, and I hope that they can be ordered through inter-library loan. No trace of Lewis & Lewis in any of the amazon sites, Tom (and I've checked all sites, the American one, the British one, even the German one), but first things first, I'd rather concentrate on contemporary sources. By the by, if anyone's interested in the Hansard debate I've cited in my post #64, it's fascinating and it prominently mentions the Primrose League. I wish I could go through it more carefully tonight but I can't. Work to do.

By HRH, do you mean Prince Eddy? Oh, HRH as “His Royal Highness“? Wow. That's pompous.

[Tom_Wescott]

Old Bailey and newspapers.

Not sure.

HRH is the Prince.

I just read Lewis & Lewis, the only biography of George Lewis (who burned his papers). It's an amazing book. Very entertaining and informative. I recommend it to anyone. It discussed the Parnell Commission. Within the book, the author recommended a book called 'Parnell', so I want to check that out myself.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Lewis denied knowing Le Grand at all, until Le Grand mentioned that he had proof. Suddenly, Lewis' memory improved to having met Le Grand TWICE before.

Tom, is this documented in the Old Bailey? (Which I'll look up soon.)

Labouchere and Lewis had been best friends for many, many years, and it was none other than Lewis who found Pigott holed up in a hotel ready to commit suicide with a gun.

Was that when Pigott shot himself in Madrid, or was there a previous incident in London? (Probably a previous incident in London.)

Lewis' other really good friend was HRH.

Who was HRH?

Can anybody recommend me some good lit on the Parnell Commission? I've found (but not consulted yet):
- T. W. Moody: “The Times“ versus Parnell and Co., 1887-90, Historical Studies (Papers read before the Irish Conference of Historians) VI, London, Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1968
- Henry Harrison: Parnell, Joseph Chamberlain and “The Times“, Belfast and Dublin, 1953
There's also Sir Robert Anderson's Parnellism and crime articles, tons of articles in the New York Times of 1889, and this debate I've located in the Hansard, mentioning “Parnellism“ and the Primrose League:
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1887/apr/18/adjourned-debate-seventh-night

[Tom_Wescott]

Le Grand, Labouchere, & Pigott

A few points worthy of note...at first, Lewis denied knowing Le Grand at all, until Le Grand mentioned that he had proof. Suddenly, Lewis' memory improved to having met Le Grand TWICE before. Le Grand's mention of Labouchere and Pigott specifically was not accidental, nor likely was Le Grand's showing up at Lewis' office right after Pigott gave evidence accidental. The reason I say this is that Labouchere and Lewis had been best friends for many, many years, and it was none other than Lewis who found Pigott holed up in a hotel ready to commit suicide with a gun. Therefore, if Le Grand was following Pigott and Labouchere, he would have been led right to Lewis' door many a time...which I believe was on Portland Place.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Lewis' other really good friend was HRH.

[mariab]

Debs,
very-very interesting. Might I inquire where this snippet you've posted comes from? From the Old Bailey? From what it says in this snippet, it kinda appears as if Joseph Soames was around, following up the Labouchere/Lewis action, but that Soames' agenda was still against Parnell. At least that's how it looks to me.
I completely agree with you that Le Grand would probably not have mentioned any of this in his 1889 trial for blackmailing the doctor unless there was some substance to his having spied Labouchere/Pigott etc.. My interpretation would be that Le Grand might have mentioned this to show the interested parties that he possessed some knowledge, for possible blackmailing purposes, in the hope of receiving a more lenient sentence and protection. What would you say?

[Debra A]

Maria, all I can say is it is an odd thing to mention in the 1889 trial of a man for blackmailng a doctor, unless there was some substance to it.

Here's what Soames' detectives were up to around the same time:

[mariab]

Hi Maria,
No, Le Grand didn't testify as far as I am aware.
The specific questions relating to Grand being employed by Soames, asked at Grand's trial, are not reproduced in the Old Bailey trial transcript, just Lewis's answers that he did not know Le Grand was employed by Soames, had been shadowing Labouchere etc. Without the exact question it's hard to determine why Lewis was being asked about Soames.

Thank you so much for clarifying, Debs, and yes, I've noticed that the Old Bailey transcripts only contain the witnesses' answers, missing the questions. I'll look up the Parnell inquest, and I might need to PM you indeed if I don't manage to find it. (Sometimes the Old Bailey gets stuck in the 1770s and doesn't move further when I conduct a search, but only infrequently. It's sooo irritating when it happens.)
Still, it really makes sense for a Times sollicitor to have another journalist followed if he had gotten wind that the anti-Parnell campaign advertised by his own newspaper was a fake, or if he already knew it was a fake and had gotten wind that other journalists had figured it out too.

[Debra A]

Debs, can I PM you during the weekend (or later) to ask you about where one could consult transcriptions from the Parnell inquiry? Or is just newspapers reports?

And I'm really interested in figuring out Joseph Soames role in all this. The simplest explanation might be that he wanted to protect his newspaper from a libel suit (in which he didn't succeed ultimately).

Yeah, that's fine Maria.

[Debra A]

Hmmmm. Was this their second visit to Lewis? I had them in my head visiting him sooner than Feb of 89.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,
Le Grand returned to see Lewis at a later date, without Scanlan. As Lewis only says Grand visited him on roughly Feb last, going on to say 'just before Pigott gave evidence,' which was Feb 1889, it could refer to Grand's lone visit and not the earlier visit accompanying Scanlan.

Hi Maria,
No, Le Grand didn't testify as far as I am aware.
The specific questions relating to Grand being employed by Soames, asked at Grand's trial, are not reproduced in the Old Bailey trial transcript, just Lewis's answers that he did not know Le Grand was employed by Soames, had been shadowing Labouchere etc.
Without the exact question it's hard to determine why Lewis was being asked about Soames.

[mariab]

Was this their second visit to Lewis? I had them in my head visiting him sooner than Feb of 89.

Second visit sounds like if they had success in getting hired by George Henry Lewis.

Debs, can I PM you during the weekend (or later) to ask you about where one could consult transcriptions from the Parnell inquiry? Or is just newspapers reports?

And I'm really interested in figuring out Joseph Soames role in all this. The simplest explanation might be that he wanted to protect his newspaper from a libel suit (in which he didn't succeed ultimately).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariab
By the by, Scanlan sounds like an Irish name. Or not? Possibly explaining his spotting a letter from The Irish Times?

He's probably the fellow who Le Grand had visit Emily Marsh re: the Lusk letter, supposing it wasn't Le Grand himself.

Actually this makes sense. Very much. As Scanlan might have spotted an Irish accent. (Without contesting the possibility that Le Grand might have been able to imitate an Irish accent, both when visiting Emily Marsh and in the Lusk letter.)

[Tom_Wescott]

By the by, Scanlan sounds like an Irish name. Or not? Possibly explaining his spotting a letter from The Irish Times?

He's probably the fellow who Le Grand had visit Emily Marsh re: the Lusk letter, supposing it wasn't Le Grand himself.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Le Grand, in company with Scanlan, who had a letter of introduction from the Irish times, went to George Henry Lewis around February 1889

Hmmmm. Was this their second visit to Lewis? I had them in my head visiting him sooner than Feb of 89.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott