Mary Kelly - Profile

[lynn cates]

information

Hello Corey. You are exceptionally wise to disambiguate "information" with error from information without error. Indeed, the first is not information at all; but, rather, I think, disinformation.

Well done.

Cheers.
LC

[KatBradshaw]

Here we go again. Hate to prick enthusiasm, but there is more to genealogy than taking two random Mary Kellys [ age difference over twenty years] and try to weld them together to achieve a result. I have been looking at ,Mary Kellys for years, there were at least seventy on 1881 census, not counting the ones born in Ireland, or the married ones. A consistent chain of probability must be established over several years, of the subject's life, births marriages deaths , census records, parents brothers, sisters, each piece of evidence matching the next, I could give you loads of Marys , but only in one census, which is meaningless.
Davies was one of the commonest welsh names, there are literally hundreds and I have found many Davies of all ages killed in various mine explosions in Wales in the 19th century,but unless one can find at lest two matching records,birth census, or birth, marriage, marriage davies death then she will remain a mystery to us.
Miss Marple

You are absolutely right. What a shame it is that this path will almost certainly not lead us to the real Mary Kelly

[corey123]

Hello Lynn,

Not disinformation per se.

[lynn cates]

distinction

Hello Corey. You are right again. So here I must invoke the old distinction, per se/per accidens. That would be disinformation per accidens.

Cheers.
LC

[jason_c]

"Now, let's ask ourselves a question. Why is the good Mr. Barnett practically holding up a neon sign reading, "Fallen woman here"? This chap goes out of his way to let us know that MJ was a whore--in West London, in France, in Whitechapel. And this, given his proclivity to be revulsed by such activity."


Lynn, perhaps because he was telling the truth at a formal inquest?

Im not sure how revulsed he was at such past activities from Kelly. It was the recent activities of Kelly which he said he probably disliked. In simple terms, its ok being a former prostitute, but not a current one.

[lynn cates]

story

Hello Jason.

"perhaps because he was telling the truth at a formal inquest"

Of course, that is entirely possible. To "tell the truth," from a legal point of view, indicates that one intends such, even if one's "information" is deficient. It may very well be the case that Barnett's story was, as far as he knew, true.

But I believe that we agree that the story of MJ, as it has come down to us, is sadly deficient.

It may also be that he was so put off by the "recent activities" that he decided to spare not, but expose his former lover to the world. But my point is that, if he did, his behaviour was strictly different from the behaviour of others.

To make a comparison, it is like the time honoured custom of saying a few nice words at the funeral of a departed person. Imagine, if you will, a boorish Domini opening his funeral oration with, "And now, this bloke is in the hottest part of Hell--and bloody well serve him right, too!"

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

Hi Lynn,

And your last example should be considered in light of what these women's lives really were. Don't speak ill of the dead, as it is said. Barnett was explaining his relationship with Kelly and the reason he left her because he had been a natural suspect of the police. Domestic is the first thing they look for in a murder investigation... even these murders. He had to come clean and he knew it.

Mary Kelly was young when she died and left no legacy other than the fact that she was murdered. Try looking up the histories of other women who were victims of homicide outside of the Whitechapel Murders; especially 'unfortunates' that operated under the radar of the authorities and had no inclination to leave a paper trail or to even tell the truth about themselves. Many of these women were known only by their nicknames.

From our lofty perch, we can little imagine or understand the world they lived in. None of us have experienced this kind of poverty, desolation and cycle of dependance that was their everyday life... where there's no thought of tommorow; today is challenging enough and the needs of the moment are the only concern.

Sadly, Mary Jane Kelly's only likely mission was to utilize a semen receptical at one end to gratify an alcohol repository at the other. She seems to have sunk to a lower level of degradation quicker than her much older peers had done; her ticket to immortality being a brutal death in a God forsaken little room that none of us would even use for a toilet.

We can't even imagine how beautiful she once was. All that is left is a gruesome photo that leaves us no reminder that she was a woman at all except for her stockings and the chemise on her shoulder.

There is no evidence to suggest that anything else happened other than what was bleeding obvious to all who were there. To concoct something else without any supporting evidence, does a disservice to all of the people that endured this nightmare.

[lynn cates]

the story

Hello Hunter.

"Sadly, Mary Jane Kelly's only likely mission was to utilize a semen receptical at one end to gratify an alcohol repository at the other."

Why is this likely? As a matter of fact, I find it highly UN-likely. We talk about how bad her situation was in Whitechapel. OK, but don't we, at the same time, believe that she spent time in much better surroundings in West London and in Paris? And then we believe further that she left these, for what . . . ?

Does that really make sense? I think not. And doesn't it do a very big disservice to her to suggest that she was other that "a woman of sober habits" but occasionally the worse for drink?

Cheers.
LC

[chudmuskett]

I would say the only solid amount of information we have is that she died on November 9th, 1888, and used the name Mary Kelly.

Aside from these, we are open to guessing.

Hi Corey, I seem to remember there was a loose end with her death, from what I remember a couple of people claimed to have seen her after her death.

[corey123]

Hello Chus,

I am highly confident that woman we Kelly, who else could it have been?

[chudmuskett]

Hello Chus,

I am highly confident that woman we Kelly, who else could it have been?

I thought she had a flatmate ??? Maybe they just assumed it was Mary and Mary thought it better to stay that way as she couldnt pay the rent. Hard to tell after youve been Ripporized.

[jason_c]

I thought she had a flatmate ??? Maybe they just assumed it was Mary and Mary thought it better to stay that way as she couldnt pay the rent. Hard to tell after youve been Ripporized.

2 or 3 individuals would be required to make the same mistake ID'ing her. As far as we know she was positively ID'd by all.

[corey123]

Aside from the fact that she was identified, which in my opinion doesn't count for much anyway, considering the state she was in, no one ever came out and said "Hey, I am Mary Kelly, I am still alive".

This leads me to believe that she was indeed that poor girl dead in No.13

[chudmuskett]

Hi Jason and Corey, the point Im trying to make is that every time theres a spark of hope in the form of solid evidence something comes along and pops in a shadow of doubt. Lets face it, the police were unprepared and pretty lame at the time and alot of the evidence was lost. I used to think it was 100% Mary but there is now some doubt.

Also, how would anyone be able to positively identify that women?

[corey123]

Hello Chud,

The police did the best they could with the options they had. You have to remember, that while the made some mistakes, e.g Goulston st, etc. Their intent was proactive.

In the case of identifying the body dead in No.13? Aside from what we have, nothing really can, although, if it were another woman, it would likely have no affect on the case anyway.

The girl was still murdered, in the same way, the same day, and the same time. Hell, we don't even know if Mary Kelly was her real name, so what difference does it make? The only way it would change the course of events is if these women we targeted specifically, which is unlikely.

Nevertheless, I feel it safe to say it was Mary Kelly dead in No.13.

Yours truly,

Corey